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Ivy Rankings

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Really?  Do you think a roster of roughly 30 wrestlers has a significant affect on the National rankings Cornell has?  I am sure several of the wrestlers are still taking advanced classes and holding a high GPA.

 

 

Any negatives that Cornell gets due to an easier academic system(taking it for granted that it actually is) are easily overshadowed by the National recognition the University receives for such a visible wrestling program.

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Any negatives that Cornell gets due to an easier academic system(taking it for granted that it actually is) are easily overshadowed by the National recognition the University receives for such a visible wrestling program.


 


  - No i get that and for the most part it's been worth the risk, certainly feature articles in the N.Y. Times and other publications have been very favorable.  They seem to have achieved the right balance.


Edited by buck

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Perception is part of rankings, and if sports didn't matter then why field varsity teams?

many professors ask their administration that question on a regular basis. 

 

for some schools, sports matter quite a bit. for other schools they are about as important as the college radio station or the rock climbing wall. 

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at what price? try zero. 

 

and what risk are you talking about? sports dont matter at ivys. they dont matter the university of chicago, johns hopkins or MIT either. cornell's wrestling team could close up shop tomorrow and cornell's global ranking would not budget one iota.

Chicago is the only accurate one on the list.

 

Johns Hopkins is all about Lax. They are a member of the Big Ten Conference, after all. In fact, they hold their homecoming in April so that it is during Lax season.

 

MIT - They are all about Crew.

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I have said this before but Cornell is really a unique situation. They are an interesting mix of a state school and a private school. There really is no school that you can compare them too due to all of the unique features of Cornell.

 

In my opinion, it would be like throwing Penn State, Penn, Delaware, Princeton, Binghamton, and Brown into a mixing pot and then when you poured it out you get Cornell.

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Chicago is the only accurate one on the list.

 

Johns Hopkins is all about Lax. They are a member of the Big Ten Conference, after all. In fact, they hold their homecoming in April so that it is during Lax season.

 

MIT - They are all about Crew.

Hopkins has plenty of alumni that love lacrosse and they'll make sure the program sticks around and contends for D1 titles, but the school is not going to miss a beat if the team folds. i'm not as familiar with MIT but i'm guessing that is the case with the crew team.

 

so yeah they matter in many important respects but in the grand scheme of things they are an afterthought and a budgeting rounding error. Hopkins and MIT's prestige and reputation as an institution have higher education have nothing to do with their respective lax or crew teams, as far as i can tell anyway.  

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Hopkins has plenty of alumni that love lacrosse and they'll make sure the program sticks around and contends for D1 titles, but the school is not going to miss a beat if the team folds. i'm not as familiar with MIT but i'm guessing that is the case with the crew team.

 

so yeah they matter in many important respects but in the grand scheme of things they are an afterthought and a budgeting rounding error. Hopkins and MIT's prestige and reputation as an institution have higher education have nothing to do with their respective lax or crew teams, as far as i can tell anyway.

Correct.

 

As is the case with Michigan, Penn State, Notre Dame, Berkley, Vanderbilt, and Stanford. If any of them stopped playing football, basketball, or whatever it would have no impact on the world class education they provide and would have little impact on the quality of students that choose to attend.

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Correct.

 

As is the case with Michigan, Penn State, Notre Dame, Berkley, Vanderbilt, and Stanford. If any of them stopped playing football, basketball, or whatever it would have no impact on the world class education they provide and would have little impact on the quality of students that choose to attend.

right, which is relevant due to the OP. buck assuming there was some sort of link between Cornell's reputation among the Ivy's and their wrestling team. i can not recognize any such connection. 

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right, which is relevant due to the OP. buck assuming there was some sort of link between Cornell's reputation among the Ivy's and their wrestling team. i can not recognize any such connection.

The only impact wrestling has had, other than the added exposure, is probably making people aware of how many Cornell kids come from the Community College's in New York. Just as kids transfer from PSU-New Kensington to Penn State or Florence-Darlington Tech to South Carolina Cornell has a good number of community college transfers due to their SUNY articulation agreements. This is a stark difference from Princeton where the school doesn't allow for any transfers even from Columbia, Stanford, or Harvard. It was smart of Koll to understand his school's unique situation and to maximize the situation but it has been an issue a lot of people have had with Cornell from other Ivy League schools.

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Well said Pinnum (what is a Pinnum?), Cornell is an outlier within the Ivies and Koll has administration support allowing him to rewrite the terms of engagement with his wrestling squad.  

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Varsity teams lead to alumni donations and merchandise sales.  Athletic revenues lead to more funding for academic programs.  More funding for academic programs theoretically helps the school's reputation.  If you got rid of varsity sports, it might not immediately reduce the quality of the education but it would have long term effects.

 

Varsity sports are the major glue that keeps alumni engaged in their school.  Granted, the effect is greater for sports like football and basketball than wrestling or crew.  But without athletics, most alumni would have a diminished relationship with their alma mater.

 

A strong athletics program is also a selling point for students.  Many prospective students (not just student-athletes) perceive sports as integral to a well-rounded college experience.  A college without a strong athletics program is at a competitive disadvantage to its peers.

Edited by knox

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Knox, you're right for schools like North Carolina, Penn State and other flagship schools. VCU, UVA, VT get significantly more donations when they are winning than JMU and GMU when they are not.

 

Alumni giving is a metric used in college rankings and by credit rating agencies to judge colleges. The number biggest factors in alumni giving are the feelings that students have that a school contributed to their success. What is interesting is that athletic success can manipulate this and result in some donations from people who don't feel that is true, just in an effort to gain preferred athletic incentives.

 

North Carolina, Michigan, UCLA, and other state flagships produce some great graduates and some of the top people in their field. However, they also have a lot of lower performing graduates that are just pushed through the school no different than if they were at Maine-Agusta or Youngstown State. These grads typically don't turn in to donors but when there is athletic success they can get motivated, if for no other reason than the benefits that are packaged with them.

 

You will notice that the schools with the highest alumni rates have very little significance on the national stage in athletics. Schools like Spellman, Princeton, Williams, Morehouse, Middlebury, Thomas Aquinas, Bates, Colgate, and many others have higher or comparable alumni giving rates to Notre Dame, Stanford, and Duke which allocate much greater resources for athletic success.

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Well said Pinnum (what is a Pinnum?), Cornell is an outlier within the Ivies and Koll has administration support allowing him to rewrite the terms of engagement with his wrestling squad.  

so if Koll and Cornell's wrestling program rewrote the "terms of engagement" to be more in the line with the rest of the Ivies then they'd be less of an "outlier" and see their standing rise? seems odd the administration would allow for such a small part of their university have such a major impact on the school's reputation. 

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so if Koll and Cornell's wrestling program rewrote the "terms of engagement" to be more in the line with the rest of the Ivies then they'd be less of an "outlier" and see their standing rise? seems odd the administration would allow for such a small part of their university have such a major impact on the school's reputation.

Actually, Koll just operates his program more in line with how Cornell operates the University. Like I said, nothing wrong with what Koll does. He does, however, have a very different situation than some of the other schools in the conference. But that can be said about Northwestern in the Big Ten and Vanderbilt in the SEC too.

 

While there are wrestling people that may not like how Cornell operates, my comments were referring to the University. There are non-sports people that don't like how Cornell plays the game with their admissions and various programs to inflate admission stats that are not representative of the whole student body. But it is important to realize that Cornell is a very unique school. It is a large school with a lot of the feel of a flagship state school while it operates state school programs and also is a member of the Ivy League and a long standing tradition of academic excellence.

 

Without going into a lot of the different things that make Cornell unique, this article may shed some light. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/education/11accept.html

Edited by Pinnum

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Actually, Koll just operates his program more in line with how Cornell operates the University. Like I said, nothing wrong with what Koll does. He does, however, have a very different situation than some of the other schools in the conference. But that can be said about Northwestern in the Big Ten and Vanderbilt in the SEC too.

 

While there are wrestling people that may not like how Cornell operates, my comments were referring to the University. There are non-sports people that don't like how Cornell plays the game with their admissions and various programs to inflate admission stats that are not representative of the whole student body. But it is important to realize that Cornell is a very unique school. It is a large school with a lot of the feel of a flagship state school while it operates state school programs and also is a member of the Ivy League and a long standing tradition of academic excellence.

 

Without going into a lot of the different things that make Cornell unique, this article may shed some light. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/education/11accept.html

i was being facetious and replying to buck. i know you get it! and i agree, there's nothing wrong with a coach trying to use every possible tool at his disposal to help his program. thats what coaches do!

 

also thanks for the link!

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Most of the athletes in the ivy league are unqualified compared to the rest of the university.  It just goes with the territory:  more time spent on a sport=less time spent studying. This is why gut classes still exist at these schools, despite their reputation. It's the same for most of the legacy admits as well, so there is a defined infrastructure in place to not challenge these students too much and get them a degree in 4 years (Imagine if the children of the rich donors failed out....that wouldn't go well).  

 

The bottom line is that it's a "tale of two schools" in the ivy league: half of the class consists of some of the smartest people you will ever meet and the other half is completely ordinary.  There are definitely exceptions and examples of athletes who excel academically, but most don't relative to the rest of the school.

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Most of the athletes in the ivy league are unqualified compared to the rest of the university. It just goes with the territory: more time spent on a sport=less time spent studying.

Isn't this the case at most schools? The evaluation scale is just a different order of magnitude at the Ivies than the typical university.

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