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superold

More credit for the success of HS "studs"?

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It seems to me that many people believe that it's extremely easy to lead a highly ranked HS wrestler to an ncaa title. So easy, that they don't feel a coach really deserves credit for the kids success. For example, I've talked to a few that believed that Cael's coaching abilities should not be judged on what he does with guys like Ruth and Taylor, rather he should be judged on what he does with guys like Conaway, Vollrath, and English. I disagree with this. Imo, the job that Cael did with Ruth and Taylor is superior to the job he did with English. Ruth's 3 ncaa titles, and Taylor's 2 ncaa titles trump English's one low AA finish.

 

I read a post from another thread earlier that made me think of starting this thread, here's the relevant portion:

 

"If I can send kids like Steve Bosak to your school, who never won a state title, and you as a coach have a program to foster the kid's ability to 3 time AA and National Champ then you are a great coach".

 

I believe that coaching Kyle Dake to 4 ncaa titles is Koll's best work. That's superior to taking Bosak to 3 AA's and an ncaa title to me.

 

I guess my major point is that I think coaches should get more credit for taking their "studs" to the promised land than they currently get. I don't believe that it's a given that guys like Dake, Ruth, and Taylor would have been as successful anywhere they went. The belief that these kids would have won just as much anywhere else is not uncommon.

 

Last season, I argued that Cael's job with Ruth and Taylor was superior to what Flynn did with Port and Schopp. (the context was ncaa coach of the year) I was called crazy for it, but I never got a clear answer as to why. I don't know why I should automatically believe that taking a good HS wrestler to 5th place is better than taking a great HS wrestler to the ncaa title.

 

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. Should we give coaches more credit for taking the elite HS wrestlers to ncaa success?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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They're both great achievements, in completely separate contexts. Keeping a "stud" hungry for more is tough; not to mention going from top of the food chain to fodder in the wrestling room is very strenuous mentally and spiritually. 

 

What is interesting to note is that you tagged Ruth and Dake. They were both good in HS, yes - but they weren't on the phenom level. Ruth went from getting spladled and winning 1 Prep Title to owning college wrestling for four years. Dake went from 2 state championships, which in the current landscape of wrestling is getting more and more common, to making history. Also, he beat Taylor, who beat him in HS (correct me if I'm wrong). Both of those guys are cases of amazing development and upside.

 

Keeping phenoms like Taylor, Tsirtsis, J.Oliver and Coon at the top is a matter of fine tuning. 

 

So, yes, you are right. From an objective, hardware-based standpoint, Taylor's two NCAA Championships do trump English's one AA. But, from a different perspective, English's one AA trumps Taylor's NCAA Championships. 

 

The people who say the studs would've won anywhere are maybe blowing a bit of steam. The effect that a coach can have is immense. If Taylor thought he could've won anywhere, why'd he go from ISU to PSU with Cael?

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They're both great achievements, in completely separate contexts. Keeping a "stud" hungry for more is tough; not to mention going from top of the food chain to fodder in the wrestling room is very strenuous mentally and spiritually. 

 

What is interesting to note is that you tagged Ruth and Dake. They were both good in HS, yes - but they weren't on the phenom level. Ruth went from getting spladled and winning 1 Prep Title to owning college wrestling for four years. Dake went from 2 state championships, which in the current landscape of wrestling is getting more and more common, to making history. Also, he beat Taylor, who beat him in HS (correct me if I'm wrong). Both of those guys are cases of amazing development and upside.

 

Keeping phenoms like Taylor, Tsirtsis, J.Oliver and Coon at the top is a matter of fine tuning. 

 

So, yes, you are right. From an objective, hardware-based standpoint, Taylor's two NCAA Championships do trump English's one AA. But, from a different perspective, English's one AA trumps Taylor's NCAA Championships. 

 

The people who say the studs would've won anywhere are maybe blowing a bit of steam. The effect that a coach can have is immense. If Taylor thought he could've won anywhere, why'd he go from ISU to PSU with Cael?

 

Thanks for the response.

 

 

But, from a different perspective, English's one AA trumps Taylor's NCAA Championships. 

 

 

Why do you say this? Imo, English's one AA definitely doesn't rump Taylor's career.  I disagree that all that Taylor needed was "fine tuning". From what I've seen, Taylor wasn't great on his feet in HS. Well, he still isn't great from his feet, but he improved a lot from HS to his senior year in college. I didn't see English make the improvements that Taylor made in the PSU room.

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Nobody believes this. Why is every post you make so dumb?

 

I've spoken to many people who seem to believe that IronChef. They act as if guys like Ruth and Taylor were already ncaa champions before they stepped into Cael's wrestling room.

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superold, in that case, I question their sanity. For every David Taylor, there's a Cody Gardner.

 

Hello SHP,

 

I was just reading over a past thread "Tim Flynn-COTY" where we exchanged a few posts. I'm still not clear why you didn't give your first place vote to Cael. You even say that you believe last year was Cael's best coaching job and that he deserved his 2nd place vote because of what he did with his "depth guys". Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to give Cael more credit for taking English to a low AA finish than what he did with Ruth, Taylor, and Megaludis.

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Overall, no, I wouldn't say that. But for the 2013-14 season, yes, I would give Cael more credit for taking English to that point than Ruth, Taylor, and Megaludis to theirs. Remember, English wasn't on the radar for most of us even at midseason last year (third on the depth chart at 149 behind Andrew Alton and Zack Beitz), and yet he finished seventh in the country. That's a far different situation, for last year, than Ruth, Taylor, or Megaludis.

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SHP,

 

Isn't a big part of the reason that English wasn't on everyone's radar because he was injured? Also because everyone believed that the 149 pound spot was ultimately Andrew Alton's?

 

English had quality credentials before his AA run. He won the University nationals in 2011. Earlier in his career, he placed 3rd at the Southern Scuffle. At the tournament, he beat Drake Houdashelt and placed ahead of Villalonga and Dylan Ness. He also beat Brandon Rader and Dylan Alton (Alton's first year of college).

 

In light of all of that, what win did English have last year that was so surprising?

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The top kids are college ready when they are recruited. Heard they stopped letting high school kids into college opens after a bunch of high school kids dominated a bunch of college kids at an open a few years ago.

 

Look at how some kids are doing just a month or two after starting their college practices. Do the coaches impact a kid so much that after just two weeks of practice the kid is all of a sudden a contender to be an All-American? If so, going to a week or two of camp with these coaches must make high school kids instantly state champions.

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcaonline/results/ColScorebook/WrestlerInfo.aspx?SchoolYear=2010&ID=33699

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcaonline/results/ColScorebook/WrestlerInfo.aspx?SchoolYear=2010&ID=37799

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcaonline/results/ColScorebook/WrestlerInfo.aspx?SchoolYear=2010&ID=33695

 

The list goes on and on. Kids come in ready to start for even the best college programs.

 

Read a quote by Koll once that said something to the effect that Troy Nickerson could step on the college mat and beat nearly all college wrestlers his first day of practice and that Dake was even more prepared for college.

 

Haven't some high school coaches been hired to coach major programs. A lot of kids get elite coaching before long before college and are ready to step into a lineup right as soon as they get to college.

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The top kids are college ready when they are recruited

 

.

Define "college ready"? If you mean AAs from day one, I disagree. SHP just mentioned Cody Gardner, but there's many more. How about Gulibon, Alex Tsirtsis, Grajales, Craig, Cozart, etc. These guys weren't able to win ncaa titles from day one, some of those guys never made AA.

 

Do coaches impact a kid so much that after just two weeks of practice the kid is all of a sudden a contender to be an All-American?

 

 

I think that's very possible. I've seen wrestler's improve immensely over very short periods of time. I would say it's mostly due to the mindset that's picked up once they move into a new, more competitive environment led by a top notch coach. Those links that you posted are great, but I don't believe it's a given that Dake/Ruth/Taylor would have had those same results had they not already made it into the Cornell and PSU wrestling rooms.

 

Yes, there are some who are very competitive from day one, but even then, you have to get them to perform on the mat under the bright lights. There are many practice room superstars who aren't able to translate their success in official matches.

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.

Define "college ready"? If you mean AAs from day one, I disagree. SHP just mentioned Cody Gardner, but there's many more. How about Gulibon, Alex Tsirtsis, Grajales, Craig, Cozart, etc. These guys weren't able to win ncaa titles from day one, some of those guys never made AA.

Any of these guys were college ready. Most would be national qualifiers when they walk into the room for their first practice. It is pretty elitist to not consider guys that debut in the rankings the first week as not being college ready. There is something like 250 D1 wrestlers per weight and only 33 are national qualifiers so I would say being an All-American quality wrestler is too high of a bar to label someone college ready.

 

That is like saying that a team doesn't have a guy college ready at a weight because they failed to qualify that weight for nationals. When Penn State won the title in 2011 they qualified nine guys to nationals. Are you saying Sanderson wasn't able to get a guy college ready at 165 that season? Of course that is crazy. Two thirds of all starters don't make it to nationals and that isn't including non-starters.

 

It is rare to qualify ten wrestlers for nationals. In fact, I bet most programs don't even qualify five guys. Most programs are trying to coach guys up to be national qualifiers so when you're already starting with national qualifiers you already have a huge leg up on everyone else.

 

If it were just about coaching up talent then the location of recruits wouldn't matter. Recruiting locally would be as good as going national since you could just redshirt them if they had a longer learning curve than the two weeks you say coaches need to get guys on the podium. Then coaches wouldn't have to miss practice while they are out traveling on recruiting trips.

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Taylor was pretty good in his redshirt campaign.  Other than losing to Cyler in the wrestle off and Bubba close in the finals of a couple of opens he was pretty good right out of the gate, at least top 12 performance level anyway.

 

Cael was great with his superstuds, and validated his total coaching ability with the performance of English.  However, I think Koll does this more than Cael does.

 

TNick won his title and was a 4timer, Dake not necessarily a HS superstud and got most of his notoriety from beating Grajales in Greco.  Dake took his game up a huge level.

 

However, Koll has more "unlikely" Champs/AA's than Cael.  What superstuds out of HS have fallen short at Cornell vs. the superstuds gone wrong at PSU?? 

 

In your terms: Koll in my opinion does more with more, and does more with less.

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LordNelson,

 

There are SOOO many factors outside of a Coach's control, that arguing Coach's flops vs. full achievers is not really possible.  And that is if you were debating with someone level headed let alone superold. 

 

Koll has had success issues, relative to their recruit rankings, with Villalonga, Peppelman and even Adam Frey.  I use Frey as my prime example.  The kid had Cancer.  Still he was unable to achieve what many expected of him.  Was this Koll's fault?  My point is, there are so many behind the scene factors in play that only a VERY select few are "Can't Miss Types".  Watch the movie "Draft Day".  There is a reason they do so much research.  Obviously, they have the money and resources to do these checks to avoid blowing a large investment.  Not only does the athlete have to be outstanding physically, he needs to fit the mold to transition seamlessly into the Team's philosophy and chemical make up.  Even if you control all of that there is still the University environment factor (Women, Parties, Schoolwork) that can rear it's head regardless of how well you coach.

 

Can't Miss Types are defined as recruits who were ranked Top 5 overall, became 4 year starters, 3x AA's and either multiple finalists or a National Champion.

 

My recent "can't miss types" recruits for their respective Coaches, without factoring injuries which can happen to anyone at any time, are:

 

1.) David Taylor:  The kid lived wrestling and did it with a smile.  Sanderson and Taylor were a match made in heaven.

2.) Logan Stieber:  All this kid does is win.

3.) Brent Metcalf:  If you talked to him for 5 minutes in High School and then did the same with Brands..........

4.) D. Schlatter:  If only he could have stayed healthy.......

5.) Nickerson:  See 4.)

 

Wrestlers who I believe will add themselves to the list above:

 

Jason Tsirtsis, J'Den Cox, K. Snyder, Bo Jordan, C. Marstellar and Bo Nickall.

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Villialonga's career isn't over yet.  Fair point on Peppleman.  PSU has missed with the Altons recently.  I guess arguing semantics is pointless as you said, especially with superold.  I am just bored and can't wait for the season to get rolling and don't mind hanging with the trolls to pass the time until we get something real to discuss.

Edited by LordNelson

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Dutchcountry7, I was asking you what you considered "college ready". I just want to clear that up. It seems that you believe that I don't consider  non national qualifiers to be "college ready". I don't believe that I ever said that. Btw, what do you consider to be "college ready"?

 

Any of these guys were college ready. Most would be national qualifiers when they walk into the room for their first practice.

 

 

How do you know that? And again, what do you consider "college ready"? 

 

If it were just about coaching up talent then the location of recruits wouldn't matter. Recruiting locally would be as good as going national since you could just redshirt them if they had a longer learning curve than the two weeks you say coaches need to get guys on the podium. Then coaches wouldn't have to miss practice while they are out traveling on recruiting trips.

 

 

I never said that it was all about "coaching up talent". And for the record, I didn't say that top coaches need only 2 weeks to make every high quality recruit an AA contender. 

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Dutch,  I believe they shut down HS kids in collegiate "open" tournaments the year after Chance Marstellar entered the Nittany Lion Open as an 8th grader....Call it the Marstellar rule!  

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