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madcat11

Who will win the team championship this year?

2015 NCAA champion?  

104 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will be the 2015 NCAA champion?

    • Iowa
      16
    • Minnesota
      23
    • tOSU
      44
    • Okie State
      5
    • PSU
      7
    • Edinboro
      2
    • Cornell
      4
    • Other
      3


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"Could Tomasello not place? Absolutely. Hell, even Greg Jones missed the podium one year. Still, would anyone realistically predict that"?

 

 

 

MSU158, yes, someone could realistically predict that. That's my point. Tomasello is coming into a weight class that is returning 7 or 8 AAs, so why would it be unrealistic to think that he might not make the podium? As I recall, he hasn't beaten any one of those AAs, and I've seen nothing that indicates that it would be unthinkable to imagine him losing to two of those guys at the ncaas. I'm actually surprised that you seemingly consider it unrealistic to predict a DNP for Tomasello in a "tough" weight class like 125. If we can get more specific, which returning AA would it be unrealistic to think could beat Tomasello?

 

 

"Why would I predict Gilman to win the whole thing? A returning 2x champ and the returning runner up...are at the same weight"

 

 

 

 

MSU158, you're losing track of the discussion. I'm asking you that precisely because you claimed that you were giving Iowa the benefit of the doubt, and that you were staying reserved with Ohio State.

 

If you're giving Iowa the benefit of the doubt, why not predict Gilman to take 1st? Remember, this is a benefit of the doubt scenario. Gilman has beaten Delgado before so it shouldn't be unthinkable to suggest that he could do it one more time. And mentioning that Clark placed 5th after beating Delgado is completely missing the point. I'm not saying that because Gilman beat Delgado before, you should assume that he will definitely do the same thing at the ncaas. I'm saying that because Gilman beat Delgado before, it wouldn't be unimaginable to see him do it again. And again, if you're giving him the benefit of the doubt, then a championship finish is not out of the question. Indeed, in a benefit of the doubt scenario, you're predicting what could happen "within reason". Isn't that the point?

 

I think many would agree that we have more reason to believe that Gilman could place first then we have to believe that Tomasello is essentially guaranteed an AA finish. What's more, is that you say that you were being reserved by predicting a 6th place finish for Tomasello! What has Tomasello done to show that a finish of at least 6th is very likely and more probable than Gilman beating a wrestler that he already beat before? I'm not sure how you are missing this point.

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Lol, really I am the one missing the point?  I am the ONE who made the points.    As is often the case any debate with you is pointless.  You cherry pick minutiae and beat it to death, without acknowledging any points made counterintuitive to your own.  You laughingly tell EVERYONE you have ALWAYS got the better of them in EVERY debate.

 

 

Let me make this clear for any FOUR YEAR OLD to understand.  I "BELIEVE" 3rd is the VERY best Gilman can do.  According to MYSELF, the one making the predictions(feel free to do them yourself), that is giving him the benefit of the doubt.  I also said I was more reserved with my tOSU predictions.  That was said AS A WHOLE.  I think Tomasello can go anywhere from 4th to R12.  Being reserved DOES NOT MEAN figuring the absolute worst outcome.  It simply means not predicting the best case scenario.......

Edited by MSU158

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"The guys that I mentioned had major injuries. Do some research. It's not debatable. It was a testament to their courage and abilities that they even wrestled their senior years."

 

 

I'd just like to point out that just because someone has an inury, that doesn't mean the injury was the only or primary reason for their lack of success. Please review the facts of the McD case. I won't restart the entire argument here, but I'll mention a few facts. McD beat 2 or 3 AAs on the year. (including 2nd and 3rd place finishers). He made to the ncaa quarterfinals and had a lead and choice in the 3rd period against a wrestler that he already beat before. McD believed, along with his coach, that he could win the ncaas that year, and they were right. McD, though hurt, had enough left in the tank. Unfortunately, a few technical and tactical blunders cost him. This common belief that "he was injured therefore it's unreasonable to mention any technical/tactical blunders as a reason for a loss" is ridiculous. Especially when some of those techinal/tactical shortcomings existed when the wrestler was 100%.

 

 

As far as Lewnes is concerned, I admit it is my OPINION. I feel confident in that opinion, by the fact his performance at the NCAA tournament was SO out of his norm that the knee brace couldn't be ignored

 

 

The same knee brace he had on late season. The same knee brace that he wore when he won the EIWAs. Whether he was hurt or not, he had enough left to win matches at the ncaas. He was able to wrestle, and wrestle well with the brace; he secured the #1 seed at the ncaas. Lewnes' wrestled poorly on Day 1 of the ncaas, I'd say that's the biggest reason for his underperformance. That's where the evidence points.

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superold,

 

"In spite of."  Great phrase.  Robles won an NCAA Championship "in spite of" only having 1 leg.  In fact, some may say he turned it into an advantage.  Yet, to IGNORE that he had 1 leg is ridiculous.

 

 

All of the wrestlers I named above won matches "in spite of" being injured.  It was a testament to their willpower that they still did well for what they were dealing with injury wise.  However, it is, AGAIN, a tell tale sign of you being "willfully obtuse" when you try to ignore their major injuries that "just so happen to" coincide with significant performance drop offs..........

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MSU158, you fail to address all of my points. You accuse me not "acknowledging any points made counterintuitive to my own" (which is false), but you do the very thing that you accuse me of!!!

 

A lot of my response was dedicated to answering some questions that you asked in your post. That should be obvious. When you ask questions like "Would anyone realistically predict Tomasello not placing" there's nothing wrong with answering that. My major point was to point out the fact that, yes, it is realistic to predict a DNP in light of the fact that the weight returns 7 or 8 AAs. AAs that Tomasello has never beaten before. Yes, you have your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but that's not all that you said. You're doing more than just giving your predictions, you're asking people to accept your predictions/opinions as likely. At least to some degree. And there is nothing wrong with questioning to see if your reasoning is internally consistent. A few of my questions were asked given YOUR reasoning. In other words, "if you believe/say "this", shouldn't you then believe/say "that" given the reasoning that you gave for believing "this" in the first place? I don't see why there is anything wrong with those type of questions.

 

And if giving Gilman 3rd is the benefit of the doubt, where do you think that he will really place? Could you also explain why the VERY best Gilman can do is 3rd place? It seems like you're saying it's impossible for Gilman to beat Delgado at ncaas. What would happen if Gilman wrestled Delgado at the ncaas and was leading by a few points with a .25 seconds left in the match? Would the universe explode? : )

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MSU158, why must you continue to misrepresent my position? When did I say that we should ignore anyone's injury? I'm saying to not ignore the poor technical and tactical wrestling that was done when they had these injuries. I'm also saying don't deny the wins and other success they had when they had their injuries because that can show what they are capable of. McD was capable of winning ncaas even with his health problems, but he did some poor wrestling, that is a fact. No injury changes that fact.  Dylan Alton, though hurt, was able to wrestle well enough to make AA a few years ago. He did some very poor wrestling down the stretch to lose a few matches. If you say I'm being willfully obtuse (which I'm not), then you're being willfully obtuse by denying that these guys, and many others, lost when they could have and should have won. You act like it's wrong to bring up the fact that someone could have wrestled better when they were injured. I say there's nothing wrong with acknowledging reality.

Edited by superold

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Favorites on paper are Minny and Iowa.  Bucks have too many question marks and a remarkable amount of their scoring is expected to come from Tomasello, Snyder and BoJo--none of whom have shown how they'll handle the grind of a Big Ten schedule.  Bucks have tremendous potential but that's it until they prove otherwise.  

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Ohio st looks to be the favorite on paper to me but Iowa and MInnesota arent far behind if Ohio st wins it this year they could go on a Penn st like run they could be better next year

125 Tomasello

133 Dijulius

141 Keshawn Hayes

149 Hunter

157 Micah Jordan

165 Bo

174 Martin 

184 Courts

197 Synder

Hwt Tavanello/Haines

Edited by justafan

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superold,

 

 

As is ALWAYS the case it is pointless to continue this with you.  You don't see how you talk in circles and I HAVE answered questions and described my reasoning ad nauseum.

 

 

Also, I WILL NOT debate someone who "likes" their OWN POSTS.  What type of person does that??????????????????

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MSU158,

 

You always make those claims, but you never demonstrate for all to see that they're true. Just because you believe that I talk in circles doesn't make it true. And no, you didn't answer all of my questions. I can actually prove that. With all due respect, I think you need to spend a little time working on your reading comprehension. How many times have you misrepresented my posts? About 20 times? Maybe more? If you aren't doing it intentionally, I suggest you follow my advice on this one. It gets tiring correcting you all of the time. It's also tiring for me to lead you "by hand" through all of our discussions making sure you understand the current state of the argument. Put yourself in my shoes MSU158. I don't mind our discussions, I just want you to step up to the plate so that I don't have to do all of the work. Unlike many others, you seem teachable. I respect that you decided to face my posts rather than ignore (or pretend to ignore) them. If you take my words seriously, you will end up learning something and you'll be much better off for it. My goal around here is to help people, not hurt them. To build up, not tear down. If you've been paying attention, you should have understood that by now.

 

And what's wrong with "liking" your own posts? Do you not like your own posts? I "like" my own posts, because I like my own posts. It's that simple. Are you bothered by that?

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How about this, instead of a paragraph with an ambiguous question sandwiched inside it, ask direct questions.  I never skirt them.  You on the other hand deflect and ignore throughout.

 

I challenge you to put up a post with JUST QUESTIONS.  No rambling rants.  If you want me to answer some questions CLEARLY ask them.

 

If you can follow the following format I will answer any question you post, that I actually have the answer to.

 

Start of Post

 

1.) Question 1 ONLY

2.) Question 2 ONLY

3.) ''

4.)"

repeat,repeat

 

End of Post

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How about this, instead of a paragraph with an ambiguous question sandwiched inside it, ask direct questions.  I never skirt them.  You on the other hand deflect and ignore throughout.

 

I challenge you to put up a post with JUST QUESTIONS.  No rambling rants.  If you want me to answer some questions CLEARLY ask them.

 

If you can follow the following format I will answer any question you post, that I actually have the answer to.

 

Start of Post

 

1.) Question 1 ONLY

2.) Question 2 ONLY

3.) ''

4.)"

repeat,repeat

 

End of Post

 

 

I don't like that format. I will continue to post the way that I always do. It's not hard at all to see my questions the way that I normally post. I'm tired of constantly going out of my way for you trying to help you understand. A simple refresher course on reading comprehension should do the trick MSU158. From now on, I will mostly teach you things that are wrestling related. Since I try to be a kind person, I will help you on a few minor  details, if I believe it will lead to us having a fruitful discussion. That's as far as I'll go.  

 

With that said, I have no major problems with you as a poster. I think you bring a lot to the boards. I just wish that you would try a little bit harder to understand. It also would be nice if you stopped implying that I'm unreasonable, and that I'm intentionally obtuse. It also would be nice if you didn't create threads about me. I've been nothing but respectful towards you, why can't I get the same in return? : ) 

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If Bo Jo and Hunter are healthy, as well as the rest of their starters, I still like Ohio State to take it. BUT I must admit I am not as confident as before. 

 

There are just so many things that can happen? Last year if both Dardanes did not choke it would have been Minnesota with the team championship.

 

Ohio State does not seem to be the best conditioned team. Injuries to two of their studs is a question mark. Let's see how Snyder does this weekend. I would not be surprised to see him lose a match or maybe two. I could go on and on.

 

1- Ohio State

2- Minnesota

3- Iowa

4- PSU

5- Okie State

6- Cornell

 

I feel my top 3 could switch spots, and 4-6 could go in any order. But realistically the season is so early and there are so many things that can change. 

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I'm kind of with you, Chasden.  I like  a healthy Ohio State. Of the others, I like Minny more than Iowa. Iowa looks like a team that will win by DEC most of the time. They also still have some issues in the middle of their line up. 

Edited by TBar1977

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I would say Missouri definitely is in contention for a team trophy.  However, I don't see the overall point scoring potential to win it all.  Over the last 15 years there were only 2 seasons where the winner scored less than 100 pts( Iowa '09-96.5pts and Minnesota '07-98pts).  With that said, it is pretty safe to assume you will need 100+ to win the NCAA tournament.  I simply don't see that from Missouri. 

 

125:Waters is very solid but I think Garrett has improved to where the 2-1 record Waters has against him doesn't properly reflect how they would currently match up.  I would put him in the 3rd-6th range with his high end scoring potential at 16pts.

 

133:Manley/Synon I don't see more than a possible NCAA qualifier and at the very best, with a great draw, 2-2.  2 pts.

 

141:Mayes is solid but I don't see him in the top 6 group.  I think he is fighting with the likes of Bright, Grey, Spisak, Mecate, Abidin, and Horan for the bottom podium spots.  If we give him the benefit of the doubt-7pts.

 

149:Houdashelt is VERY tough.  Still so is 149.  Could he win it?  Of course.  Should he win it? I can't say.  Tsirtsis, Stieber, Kindig, Habat and even Villalonga(see Grajales 2014) could affect how Houdashelt finishes. He could end up anywhere from 1st-6th.  Let's say 16 pts.

 

157:Lavallee is solid.  I honestly have no clue where to put him.  157 has ridiculous parity from 6th-16th.  He could finish 7th and he could just as easily go 1-2.  Let's give him the benefit-7 pts.

 

165: I don't see any points here.  0 pts.

 

174: England seems like he has been wrestling since I was in school(slight exaggeration).  Scrapper but 2-2 at best.  2 pts.

 

184: Miklus looks very good.  How will a heavy cut mixed in with NCAA inexperience affect him at the end of the season?  Solid kid but anything higher than 7th would shock me.  7 pts.

 

197: Cox is Top 3 pound for pound.  However, he may have 3 guys in his weight that could be argued into the top 10.  If healthy and properly motivated he wins it again.  22 pts.

 

285: Currently a GIANT question mark.  Mellon is solid, but more than 2pts would be a big surprise.  2 pts.

 

The above puts them at 81 points.  Barring a crazy, whole team perfect performance I just don't see them moving above it.  A guy or 2 may score above what I projected but it would almost be guaranteed to be offset by others missing their mark.  They are a very solid tournament team, and an even better dual team, but I just don't see the firepower necessary to win it all!

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