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James Fleming's headlock turn?

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Rule 7-2

ART. 5 . . . Other illegal holds/maneuvers include, but are not limited to:
(Photos 38-90)
a. a double underhook snap back from the standing position;
b. the hammerlock above the right angle;
c. the twisting hammerlock along with lifting the elbow off the back in a hammerlock
situation;
d. any headlock in which the arms or hands are locked around the opponent’s head without encircling an arm (elbow or above) or leg (except in the guillotine after near-fall criteria has been met or ¾ Nelson);
e. straight head scissors (even though an arm is included);
f. full nelson;
g. holds/maneuvers putting pressure on the throat and/or carotid artery;
h. twisting kneelock taken against the joint and/or away from the body;
i. keylock;
j. overhead double arm bar;
k. locking the hands behind the back in a double arm bar from the front;
l. neck wrench;
m. front, quarter nelson with the chin;
n. leg block(cut-back);
o. overscissors when pressure is applied against the joint which may cause hyperextension;
p. bending, twisting or forcing the head or any limb beyond its normal limits of movement;
q. back bow;
r. figure 4 around the body, the head or both legs;
s. chicken wing with pressure toward the shoulder, parallel to the long axis of the body;
t. hand(s) in the eye(s) or raking the eye(s);
u. any hold/maneuver used for punishment;
v. any hold/maneuver with pressure exerted over the opponent’s mouth,
nose, throat or neck that restricts breathing or circulation;
w. a back flip from the standing position

 

This may help you in your coaching. A referee can certainly call your kid for an illegal move if they are using this move.

Is this from HS rule book or college? sounds like college

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I've never seen this called....EVER.

 

 

Unsportsmanlike conduct, certainly, flagrant misconduct, yes, but this, no.

 

I have seen it called more than once and I will give you two examples.

 

1) Top wrestler has a body scissors with opponent's back exposed for near-fall criteria.  Top wrestler is laying away from body (perpendicular to the bottom wrestler) and solely squeezing his legs together against the bottom man's ribs.  No attempt to work for a fall is being made by the top man when he could adjust and do so.

 

2) Top man has double leg ride and a power half in.  Bottom man is flattened out with hips isolated from the mat.  Top man continues to crank power half without making any attempt to get out to side and work for the fall.  Top man stays centered on bottom man and continues to crank the shoulder.  Move is broken for potentially dangerous once.  Top man reapplies without making attempt to turn.  Official warns top man verbally to work to score... no change so official gives first stalling warning.  Same situation again and official calls top man for stalling awarding a point.  Upon the next application of the same ride the official hit top man for illegal hold because he was attempting to punish bottom man and not turn him.

 

Interesting to note that in both of these situations the top wrestler was clearly the dominant wrestler between the two but the bottom man had battled him hard and wasn't giving him anything easy.

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Instead of taking it straight over the top, as in a neck bow, can he take it sideways with the same effect?

 

To me, while the lock appears really uncomfortable for the person to whom it is being applied, I don't see any issue with after the turn.

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Corresponding college rule excerpt

 

Holds
5.8 Illegal
5.8.1 Holds. Any hold shall be allowed except the hammerlock above the right 
angle; twisting hammerlock; full nelson; front headlock without the arm; 
headlock without the arm (must encircle at the elbow or above); straight head 
scissors (even though the arm is included); over-scissors; strangle holds; 
all body slams; twisting knee lock; key lock; overhead double arm bar; the 
bending, twisting or forcing of the head or any limb beyond its normal limits 
of movement; locking the hands behind the back in a front double arm bar; 
full back suplay from a rear-standing position; leg cut back; rear-standing 
double-knee kick back; and any hold used for punishment alone.

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Punishment alone is a relatively subjective criterion. Without taking sides on the Snapper itself, I personally do not see how that rule applies to the move. Fleming did not apply the hold just to punish someone. He usually turned people with it which is why it was so effective. Whether it was illegal or not is subject to some interpretation based on the vagueness of the rules that seemingly apply to the move, but he was not applying the move just to punish kids. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been as successful with it.

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Punishment alone is a relatively subjective criterion. Without taking sides on the Snapper itself, I personally do not see how that rule applies to the move. Fleming did not apply the hold just to punish someone. He usually turned people with it which is why it was so effective. Whether it was illegal or not is subject to some interpretation based on the vagueness of the rules that seemingly apply to the move, but he was not applying the move just to punish kids. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been as successful with it.

usually turned

 

maybe that is bc most guys couldn't handle the punishment

 

did anyone see the match he had with Jason welch he punished welch the whole match and welch didn't turn there was no switching off the move and i cant recall who else but there were a few other guys he beat up with this move and never got them turned

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This is what I call the "DAD" syndrome.

 

When a Dad, (but could be mom's for girls programs) who has very little knowledge or experience at either a certain sport or coaching background, decides to get involved in their kids programs.

Don't get me wrong... Their INTENTIONS are GOOD... but they unable to see the bigger picture, and realize that what they are indeed doing, is counter productive to the sport.

 

I cringe when I step onto the matt, and there is a Dad sitting/standing there coaching.

I personally don't know any of you guys posting... but I see this all too often...   In youth sports.

Fathers, thinking they are doing a good thing for kids, stepping up and often volunteering their time, or taking over kid's  or lower level programs.

Ice Hockey is brutal for having fathers strap on skates, Baseball dad's teaching basics, wrestling and soccer dad's, and the list goes on...

 

When you get one of these 'Dad's' - Most of the time, these guys have very little experience - possibly some middle school or HS playing day's, and have NEVER been trained in teaching kids.

(There are the exceptions)

 

Along with 1000's of colligate matches, I've also worked 1000's of HS and below matches at National tournaments.

This spring/summers National federation events were no exception...

Some of the WORST youth parent coaches I've ever seen. 

Usually the younger the kids... the worse the 'DAD'S'

 

They know a handful of rules from when they competed at Podunk High School 20 years ago, and have no idea what they are talking about.

I often stand there, looking at these youth kids, and wonder "who taught you this... !!, This is HORRABLE..."

These guys are teaching BAD Mechanics, POOR wrestling holds and technics, and absolutely HORRENDOUS ETHICS...

They jump all over the Mat, like they are Tom Brands, yelling and screaming about illegal holds, and FOREVER saying... "HE'S LOCKING HANDS..., CHICKEN WING...""  UGHHH....

Just yelling ANYTHING to get their wrestler out of a situation.

After some of these Duals... I often would hand them the rules book, and ask them to look up the rule they were having objection too...

Every time..... "when did they change that..." etc...etc....

I actually pulled a few Dad-Coaches aside after dual meets, and asked them to show me their technic on holds, and would them ask them... WHO taught you this... ???

 

The sad part is...

Someday, these kids will grow up, and go out coach other kids all these BAD habits they learned from their poorly able Dad-coaches.

 

When 1/2 of the wrestling community  (the NCAA) swiftly stepped in and made the "Neck Bow" Illegal because it puts extreme pressure on the Neck, and HS, Middle School, and Club coaches KNOW this - BUT BLATANTY INSIST that "...because the HS Federation hasn't made this illegal yet...   I STILL want to teach it to kids.... "  - THIS JUST REAKS of the "DAD Syndrome.

 

In an OPEN College tourn late last season...  a DII red shirt kid decided to use the "Neck BOW, and dove over the top...  I stopped it immediately, and looked at him in disbelief.

I thought for a second... and thought.... well.. the kids a red shirt... maybe he doesn't know the NEW rule...

I PD's the hold.. and explained to him and his coach (who was now at the table) that '.. as soon as he dives over... IT'S illegal... !!!)  and Merry Christmas.. I'll be nice and only PD the situation... What the hell... it's an OPEN tournament...

Of course the kid does it AGAIN...   UGGHHH.... Now I give it the deserved penalty... and the coach stands there at the table  and argues the point..

I responded with ".... seriously... did you EVEN watch the NCAA video... they spent 10 MINUTES on this..."

 

This is the kind of thing you get, when coaches have just enough information to make themselves dangerous...

 

 

When you start boasting and quoting MIDDLE SCHOOL coaching success, you've lost all credibility...

Middle School sports are JUST THAT... it's a bunch of 11-12-13 year old kids...

If the kid was THAT good... he probably skipped the middle school level, and went strait to Varsity.

Middle School level is for LEARNING.... LEARNING.... learning the BASICS...

 

When you start teaching kids holds like Flemings 'Neck Bow' ...This is a recipe for disaster... and possibly for the future of the kids in the program.

 

You can try to spin it anyway you like... and start telling everyone how the rules book doesn't say it's illegal by application... etc... etc...

Your wrong...

 

I'm  not sure what the sense of teaching it is... ??

I'm MUCH more lenient than most officials (when it comes to HS), and I'd stop it PD..

If your wrestler does it... almost EVERY High School official will stop it PD

 

It's WELL within the rules book to stop it.

Edited by conanNY

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usually turned

 

maybe that is bc most guys couldn't handle the punishment

 

did anyone see the match he had with Jason welch he punished welch the whole match and welch didn't turn there was no switching off the move and i cant recall who else but there were a few other guys he beat up with this move and never got them turned

Or maybe it's because there are zero moves that always turn opponents. Even the most prolific top wrestlers in history such as Gene Mills and Wade Schaller only usually turned their opponents.

 

So again, the punishment ALONE criterion is subjective and in my opinion does not apply to this move. If someone claims the move is illegal because it is potentially dangerous and might cause jaw dislocation or whatever, fine, but to suggest it is illegal because it is only used for punishment is misguided.

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I would have second thoughts about sending my kid to a club where the coach is preaching this move. Would much rather see quality technique taught than a move that can get guys to their back because of the pain caused.

 

I have only coached youth and high school wrestling for four years, which may not qualify me to impeach your statement, but I'll give it a shot anyways:

 

Don't all pinning combinations designed to induce discomfort and pain until your opponent goes to their back?

 

 

EDIT: apparently a few other replies dealt with this quote. sorry!

Edited by GranbyTroll

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Rule 7-2

ART. 5 . . . Other illegal holds/maneuvers include, but are not limited to:
u. any hold/maneuver used for punishment;

 

But that's just for sanctioned competitions, right? Can I still 1/4 nelson choke my 11 year olds in practice without a ref running in and dinging me for 1?

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Few years ago talked to a kid at Midlands who wrestled Fleming.  His recollection was he didn't get choked out but Fleming stuffed his head so tight to the shoulder it pinched off the blood flow to the brain, things started going grey the more you tried to fight it, your arms went limp and next thing you know the ref is doing a 5-count.  His next comment was he should have finished the takedown better and not gotten stuck on bottom.

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The back bow at the high school level is illegal upon application.  

(7-1-5q) The back bow is illegal by application, whether the defensive wrestler is on his/her stomach or hip
 
Here is a link to the 2013 rule book, please review it as you probably should know the rules
 
There is a difference between causing discomfort and having college wrestlers tap out because they fear they are going to pass out or like their head will explode. Even with Nick Simmons you didn't have people tapping out. We are talking about college DI kids that are tapping out due to this move. This isn't a 6 year old first year wrestler, these are state champions and wrestlers that are NCAA qualifiers!  

 

 

I watched lots of guys tap out to Simmons front headlock once they knew the ref was going to call it.  The same exact thing happened with Flemming.  Once guys knew he would get dinged and the ref would jump in to stop it, they were tapping and gasping like crazy.

 

The same thing with arm bars.  This isnt rocket science.  Once you know the ref is going to call PD on tough arm bars, you start yelling when a tight arm bar gets put on.  Yelling out is the same thing as tapping.  You are signalling to the ref that you want him to jump in and save you from the other wrestlers dominating hold.

 

There is a very logical reason why in submission tournaments, no one taps to these moves that wrestlers are tapping and yelling about.  This is because in a submission tournament, when you do this, its game over, while in wrestling, you get a free out.  If tapping and yelling were instant dq's in wrestling, you wouldnt see anyone doing it.

Edited by olddirty

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"Punishment alone" is subjective in this case. Strictly speaking, the ref would have to assess that not only was Fleming trying to cause intense discomfort or pain -- but that he was also not trying to score, pin, or otherwise improve his position. These videos don't pass the "alone" part of the rule. If you're a wrestler, part of what wrestlers do is create pain and receive pain in the process of beating their opponent. A coach isn't doing his job by not teaching moves and holds where discomfort/pain is a major factor in their effectiveness.

 

What a couch should NOT be teaching are moves where high probablility of injury are the defining factor in their effectiveness. My issue is not that this move causes punishment, but because it is directly targeting the jaw and neck, where the consequences of injury can be catastrophic. How many hundreds of times can this move be done before injury will happen -- if not by Fleming then by some less experienced kid with even worse execution?

 

In the meantime, Snapper has developed some notoriety as this jaw crusher which gets him talked about by fans, the media, and into the head of his wrestling opponents. It makes for some fun talk, a little shock value, and riles up the masses in debate.. because Fleming is exploiting the edge of the rules to get his notoriety... and causing college wrestlers to tap, when they just don't do that.

 

Does Fleming display good sportsmanship and uphold the ideals of wrestling?

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I think that's the breaking point.  If I were showing this hold to kids for the purpose of punishing their opponents on top and not trying to get a turn, then that's wrong.  I'd personally be upset if a kid did use it for that because 1) That's not what it's for and 2) They are wasting an opportunity to score points in the top position and just trying to hurt someone, which is unsportsmanlike. The reason I do like it and encourage learning it is because 1) It's unorthodox. Lots of guys don't use it, and for our program I think that due to our status we need any edge we can get. 2) It sets up lots of other holds. I'd never want to be on track minded, we can't get this, we keep trying, no. Fleming was really good at this I noticed, he was able to use that position and counter the defensive man's defense with a cradle or a good ride.  I would argue if a ref did break it upon application, only because he wouldn't have given our kid time to work a turn.  Give a chance, and as long as we aren't just locking it up then sitting on the hips and not moving forward, nothing wrong with that, as long as we're moving forward and looking for a turn. 

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This is what I call the "DAD" syndrome.

 

When a Dad, (but could be mom's for girls programs) who has very little knowledge or experience at either a certain sport or coaching background, decides to get involved in their kids programs.

Don't get me wrong... Their INTENTIONS are GOOD... but they unable to see the bigger picture, and realize that what they are indeed doing, is counter productive to the sport.

 

I cringe when I step onto the matt, and there is a Dad sitting/standing there coaching.

I personally don't know any of you guys posting... but I see this all too often...   In youth sports.

Fathers, thinking they are doing a good thing for kids, stepping up and often volunteering their time, or taking over kid's  or lower level programs.

Ice Hockey is brutal for having fathers strap on skates, Baseball dad's teaching basics, wrestling and soccer dad's, and the list goes on...

 

When you get one of these 'Dad's' - Most of the time, these guys have very little experience - possibly some middle school or HS playing day's, and have NEVER been trained in teaching kids.

(There are the exceptions)

 

Along with 1000's of colligate matches, I've also worked 1000's of HS and below matches at National tournaments.

This spring/summers National federation events were no exception...

Some of the WORST youth parent coaches I've ever seen. 

Usually the younger the kids... the worse the 'DAD'S'

 

They know a handful of rules from when they competed at Podunk High School 20 years ago, and have no idea what they are talking about.

I often stand there, looking at these youth kids, and wonder "who taught you this... !!, This is HORRABLE..."

These guys are teaching BAD Mechanics, POOR wrestling holds and technics, and absolutely HORRENDOUS ETHICS...

They jump all over the Mat, like they are Tom Brands, yelling and screaming about illegal holds, and FOREVER saying... "HE'S LOCKING HANDS..., CHICKEN WING...""  UGHHH....

Just yelling ANYTHING to get their wrestler out of a situation.

After some of these Duals... I often would hand them the rules book, and ask them to look up the rule they were having objection too...

Every time..... "when did they change that..." etc...etc....

I actually pulled a few Dad-Coaches aside after dual meets, and asked them to show me their technic on holds, and would them ask them... WHO taught you this... ???

 

The sad part is...

Someday, these kids will grow up, and go out coach other kids all these BAD habits they learned from their poorly able Dad-coaches.

 

When 1/2 of the wrestling community  (the NCAA) swiftly stepped in and made the "Neck Bow" Illegal because it puts extreme pressure on the Neck, and HS, Middle School, and Club coaches KNOW this - BUT BLATANTY INSIST that "...because the HS Federation hasn't made this illegal yet...   I STILL want to teach it to kids.... "  - THIS JUST REAKS of the "DAD Syndrome.

 

In an OPEN College tourn late last season...  a DII red shirt kid decided to use the "Neck BOW, and dove over the top...  I stopped it immediately, and looked at him in disbelief.

I thought for a second... and thought.... well.. the kids a red shirt... maybe he doesn't know the NEW rule...

I PD's the hold.. and explained to him and his coach (who was now at the table) that '.. as soon as he dives over... IT'S illegal... !!!)  and Merry Christmas.. I'll be nice and only PD the situation... What the hell... it's an OPEN tournament...

Of course the kid does it AGAIN...   UGGHHH.... Now I give it the deserved penalty... and the coach stands there at the table  and argues the point..

I responded with ".... seriously... did you EVEN watch the NCAA video... they spent 10 MINUTES on this..."

 

This is the kind of thing you get, when coaches have just enough information to make themselves dangerous...

 

 

When you start boasting and quoting MIDDLE SCHOOL coaching success, you've lost all credibility...

Middle School sports are JUST THAT... it's a bunch of 11-12-13 year old kids...

If the kid was THAT good... he probably skipped the middle school level, and went strait to Varsity.

Middle School level is for LEARNING.... LEARNING.... learning the BASICS...

 

When you start teaching kids holds like Flemings 'Neck Bow' ...This is a recipe for disaster... and possibly for the future of the kids in the program.

 

You can try to spin it anyway you like... and start telling everyone how the rules book doesn't say it's illegal by application... etc... etc...

Your wrong...

 

I'm  not sure what the sense of teaching it is... ??

I'm MUCH more lenient than most officials (when it comes to HS), and I'd stop it PD..

If your wrestler does it... almost EVERY High School official will stop it PD

 

It's WELL within the rules book to stop it.

Excellent writing and great point.  Thanks.  A ray of sanity in an insane world.

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