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James Fleming's headlock turn?

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I'm trying to find if there's some more video on this. I really like it and want to learn it so I can pass it along to the club I'm coaching with now. Can anybody direct me to where I might find any video? Has he ever done an instructional on it or anything? I've watched him use it, but I can't really tell what he's doing exactly. It's just not something I've seen a lot of.  It seems similar to what Simmons does/did, but he was less concerned about staying in control because it's freestyle.

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When he does it with the same side leg in, its a Navy Ride.  With the opposite side leg in its called a Merkel.  People think it is some kind of deadly submission move, but literally no one will concede defeat and tap out in BJJ to this move because it can be easily countered.  His opponents try to get penalty calls against him, but go to any kids jiujitsu tournament and you wont see any of them tapping to an arm in guillotine from the back.  It rarely if ever puts people to sleep.

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I saw him turn Darrion Caldwell with it, and it didn't even look like the legs came into play, like he was using it almost like a tilt.  He stepped all the way over to one side on Caldwell and just torqued the head sort of forward.  I wish I could find more footage of him doing this, like when he caused Spates to run onto the mat to break the hold. It's a great hold and could catch someone by surprise if you do it right.

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I think the NCAA just made Fleming's variation on this illegal.  I don't know whether it's legal in high school or not?

 

5.8.13 Neck Bow. When in the top position, the offensive wrestler applies a legal head and arm, locked from the side, and then somersaults toward and over the defensive wrestler’s head. This position may create a choking situation and could put undue pressure on the neck and spine and is, therefore, illegal. (See Illustration No. 99.) 

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I had one of Flemings teammates show me this turn because I was curious about it. All the pressure is on your jaw. It feels like your jaw bone is going to explode from the pressure. Check the 3:52 mark. You can clearly see that Flemings lock is on the jaw bone and the airway is not obstructed. As soon as James applies pressure to the jaw the kid starts to try to tap out. I was told the key to it is to keep your forearm along the jaw line.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/237838-10-Oklahoma-Brockport-Gold/video/366076-157-Matt-Lester-vs-James-Fleming

 

It gets stopped in this match, but you can clearly see again the lock is on the jaw. 2:39 & 4;50 marks. The 4:50 mark is probably one of the best views of the lock you will find.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/238034-Clarion-VS-Edinboro-Fort-LeBoeuf-HS-GOhioCasts/video/399019-157-lbs-Johnny-Greisheimer-Edinboro-VS-James-Fleming-Clarion

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Why would any coach with any ethics want to show this to a bunch of High School kids... !!??

 

This is a dangerous hold... plain and simple.

It works because of the pressure applied to the neck.

What Fleming does is force the head and neck directly over the top.  The result is that the wrestlers ENTIRE body weight (and part of Flemings own weight) is forced over the neck in a crunched position.  To make it worse, Fleming would turn the head sideways (locking on the jaw).. removing any type of strength of the defensive wrestler to protect his neck. (ie.. like doing a bridge with the head strait vs sideways).

The lock (although not directly on the neck), presses the jaw into the defensive wresters own neck. (very different that the pressure of a half nelson, or guillotine).

 

The first year... the NCAA mandated that the lock had to be OFF the neck (at some point, the lock would eventually slide over the neck, but it was hard to catch.  As the defensive wrestler would turn, it would move back to the jaw, and by then it would be NF criteria.  Hard to stop a situation after the fact.)

 

The NEXT season (after Fleming graduated) the NCAA flat out made any lock where the motion goes 'over the head' Illegal... No PD, no warning.

 

This season the NCAA is moving even further, making cross body locks (around the neck and arm) holds considered possible stalling holds.

 

HS federation considers any hold PD... even though it may be locked on the jaw.. the extreme pressure on the jaw/neck would make this PD.

repeated application and PD calls, puts this in the illegal category. 

 

James Fleming was a average wrestler... with a unique hold that he exploited.

He pinned some top wrestlers with this hold, no doubt (stieber)

 

When others in this thread, and past threads on this hold, describe the pressure  ".......If Feels like your Jaw bone is about to explode from the pressure...."

you gotta wonder about the legality of the hold.

 

I get that there is NO direct verbage in HS or freestyle wrestling addressing this hold.

But at the highest level of NCAA competition, they deem that his hold is dangerous... why would you want kids to start using this... ???

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I actually wrestled Fleming in high school and I always thought he just choked people.  However, after wrestling him, he locks right on the jaw.  It doesn't obstruct the airway at all.  It did however hurt like hell.  You were sure to have a sore jaw for the next couple days.  I never had a problem with the hold and still don't unless someone would move it to the throat

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Why would you have a problem with a coach teaching a legal move even if it can cause pain? I mean this sport is all about pain.

 

Should he not tell kids to drive the knee into the ribs on a cradle? It hurts after all but is completely legal. How about a spladel? Not exactly a comfortable position and it is nearly impossible to pin somebody since almost always your own body gets in the way.  

 

A lot of people are very happy that most coaches no longer teach “The Crusher.” Man that is brutal but is perfectly legal. I taught it to my kid and the first time he used it he made the other kid cry. His Jr high and High school coaches told him he could not use it in practice, he occasionally ignores them. He's had several kids just absolutly quit a couple of seonds after he tightened it up.    

 

I have no problem with a coach teaching legal moves if it gives his own kids an advantage.  

 

 

You WILL get hurt every time you practice or participate, it is just a matter of how much and where.

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Doesn't Massa from UM use the same hold as the center of his offense???  I wonder how he will fare this year if it is deemed illegal!

 

That's what I was wondering.  I'm unclear on the specifics of the rule clarification, but Massa relies heavily on this ride and turn, both of which are going to be scrutinized this year.

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A lot of people are very happy that most coaches no longer teach “The Crusher.” Man that is brutal but is perfectly legal. I taught it to my kid and the first time he used it he made the other kid cry. His Jr high and High school coaches told him he could not use it in practice, he occasionally ignores them. He's had several kids just absolutly quit a couple of seonds after he tightened it up.    

your kid is so cool

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too bad there isn't a sport where teenagers see who can hold their arms over an open flame the longest. i practice this sport with my kid all the times and a bet he will make all your "wrestler" kids look like wimpy basketball playing cry babies. 

That would be an activity and not a sport. Kind of like those weirdoes who hang themselves up with meat hooks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes a real parent has to draw the line somewhere and I kind of did that with self-mutilation. Apparently you weren't smart enough to figure out there is a difference between being a winner and intentional permanent physical scaring.

Edited by Zebra

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I guess you missed the point...

It's about ethics....

not if you can make the guy cry or inflict pain...

 

This hold is DANGEROUS.. That's why the NCAA made it illegal.

Not because it hurts, not because it's tough.

It's Dangerous..

 

It's not dangerous because of choking.. (as others have stated, because if done correctly, it doesn't choke)

It's dangerous because there is EXTREAM pressure on the neck ... not a little  bit.... a LOT... !!

 

For the same reason a Bow & Arrow or Back Bow taken directly over the head or shoulder is illegal...

It's Dangerous...

 

You're talking about Life Long neck and back injuries...

 

A spladle... or guillotine.. yeah... you might pull the guys groin muscle, or get a stretched tendon... and it hurts like hell...

Yeah.. I get it...

But any injury do to that hold.. .won't paralyze you...

 

Flemings 'Neck Bow' as it has been called.. . IS illegal because it's dangerous... not because it hurts...

I sat with him right after the rules committee met with him.  we went through the hold in a number of ways.

It never chokes you, done the way Fleming does it... BUT it DOES apply heavy, heavy pressure on the neck..

 

The fact that the HS Federation has not caught up with this yet... is NO excuse..

If HS kids start to use this.. it will become illegal as fast as you can blink.

 

If you are a coach with ANY ethics... you know this... and you know it's dangerous..

 

Shame on you, if you teach this..

This is like kids watching pro wrestling, and then trying out in a HS wrestling match.

you're trying to learn a move that you KNOW is dangerous from watching a video clip....

AND THEN you want to teach what you THINK you know to high school (and maybe smaller) kids...

 

GOD ... How irresponsible... !!

 

There will always be those who can find a way to believe that this is a good move to use...

I guess we've found them...

 

I've said my peace.. ...

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I've actually done a variation of this move in a freestyle setting. It seems easier in freestyle mostly due to the fact that when my opponent flatten out to defend the lock is right there, as well as, the fact my opponent isn't expecting that type of turn to come giving me an early advantage. While you could work it in Folkstyle the constant motion of the down opponent makes is a little harder to securely lock it up, plus it may get called dangerous a little more even in my modified form. In my variation I do not lock on the face and torque on the jaw not do I end by doing a straight flip forward over the head. In that way it tends to be a little more ref, coach, and wrestler friendly.

 

I picked this variation of the move up from watching Simmons wrestle. Never got the actual name of it though. I have no clue if that was clear enough for anyone, but if you find some of Simmons freestyle matches it will be on a few of them. Though he also does a more over the top version too which is more akin to a choke. Following what I can tell from Simmons move (with less choke emphasis) I get a very deep lock (long arms) around the head and arm. It's uncomfortable but not necessarily choking around the neck. Then proceed to run my legs around the head while using my head/shoulder to push my opponents head toward his other shoulder and downward. When the pressure causes my opponent to tuck his head further down for I also tuck my head and shoulder and throw my outside leg over hard. This creates a shoulder roll motion that pulls my opponent over with me. I then trap his leg with mine and hold him for back exposier similar to the ending of this move. I've found the process of the move to be very uncomfortable but not really something the red should be calling for a choke or an unecessary neck crank.

Edited by MadMardigain

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As someone who has personally experienced the move, I can tell you it is absolutely illegal.  I wrestled him twice.  Got the first takedown of the match both time.  As soon as he gets the head and arm though.....your vision slowly starts to fade....and you get lightheaded......and then he jerks you overtop your own neck to your back.  I can't believe he got away with it throughout his career.  Not that I blame him.  No reason to stop if the refs don't call it.  I don't care what you show on video about his hands being on the chin.  My airway was obstructed.  I could not breath.

Edited by figure4

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I would have second thoughts about sending my kid to a club where the coach is preaching this move. Would much rather see quality technique taught than a move that can get guys to their back because of the pain caused.

Then surely you will have second thoughts when your son's coach teaches a basic armbar, no?

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That's what I was wondering.  I'm unclear on the specifics of the rule clarification, but Massa relies heavily on this ride and turn, both of which are going to be scrutinized this year.

I also wonder if his brother relies on it.....might need to change their style and see how that goes!

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