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Danishek v Jordan @ MSU...

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Well Angel is an assistant coach at Iowa State so I am not sure how he will help out Tomasello. And if we are including Steiber in Tomasello's weight range well then add Brent Metcalf to Gilman's as well since they wrestle the same weight internationally. Roselli was an omission and he is an extremely good coach. But again, none of those guys listed are better than their Iowa counterparts IMO. 

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Well Angel is an assistant coach at Iowa State so I am not sure how he will help out Tomasello. And if we are including Steiber in Tomasello's weight range well then add Brent Metcalf to Gilman's as well since they wrestle the same weight internationally. Roselli was an omission and he is an extremely good coach. But again, none of those guys listed are better than their Iowa counterparts IMO. 

Funny!  I dont know whether Metcalf wrestles with Gilman, but I do know for a fact that Tomasello spars with Stieber, potentially the greatest light weight of all time.  If you want to add Metcalf, fine, then you can also add JJaggers.  Escobedo was at the OROTC last year, so I am sure he and Tomasello wrestled quite a bit. 

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I dont think Nate will have much trouble beating Dance. Waters will be a bit tougher but still within reach. Garret and Delgado no chance. Gilman has had Nates number albeeit in FS, but im hoping folkstyle result will be different. That said Gilman has the clear edge at this point. One of the, if not THE most intriguing weight classes this year.

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I dont think Nate will have much trouble beating Dance. Waters will be a bit tougher but still within reach. Garret and Delgado no chance. Gilman has had Nates number albeeit in FS, but im hoping folkstyle result will be different. That said Gilman has the clear edge at this point. One of the, if not THE most intriguing weight classes this year.

 

Nate defeated Garrett the last time they wrestled two years ago.  Garrett is WAY more credentialed and proven, but I certainly wouldn't say no chance.  Delgado is a stylistic nightmare for Nate though.

Edited by figure4

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Of course you are with him. But... Tomasello is a redshirt frosh. Tomasello has already arrived. He has solid wins and very close matches with your boy in freestyle. Tomasello is going to be top 4 this year. His room (training partners) is top shelf and he is already making huge Improvments in top position. Just wait and see hawk folks

So wait not only has Gilman handled Tomasello, now we are going to debate who has the better workout partners? Say what you want about the Ohio State crew, but we're talking about Tom and Terry Brands at coach, the 57 KG Senior World Team Member, the 57 KG Bronze University medalist, Cory Clark - Who's AA finish can match what DiJulius is as a partner, and if you are going to count that Escobedo was there so he made NT better, Iowa gets to use Dan Dennis who helped Gilman train for JR Worlds, and has been around all summer.

 

Check and mate sir. In terms of guys who are actually a 125 pounders size, there is no equal to Iowa in the United States. It's not up for debate.

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Guys,

 

My debate centered around who is "currently" the favorites.  I have NO doubt things may change considerably by March, but on paper I really believe tOSU is the current, prohibitive favorite.

 

125:  The point difference between Gilman and Tomasello(at this point) looks to be negligible.  Minnesota looks to be the only other true contender and they will fall far behind at this weight.

 

133:  The point difference (at this point) between all 3 teams, again, looks to be negligible.

 

141:  This will be a huge gain for tOSU.  Dardanes has been a NCAA tournament disappointment similar to Moore but he does have the potential to shorten the gap.

 

149:  Again(at this point)  this appears to be a huge gain for tOSU.

 

157:  Dylan Ness should be a big helper for Minnesota but Demas has a chance to keep the gap manageable.  Iowa has yet to show anything here.(at this point)

 

165:  (At this point) all the data would make me put Moore and Jordan dead even.  Minnesota loses a lot here.

 

174:  Evans and Storley are big here but what Kokesh and Brown do could again(at this point) allow the gap between them and Martin to stay manageable.

 

184:  (At this point) Courts is the favorite.  R12 under his belt and 32 wins last year.  I don't have an issue with picking Brooks or even Pfarr later in the season, but (at this point) Courts is the favorite.

 

197:  Schiller is (at this point) a very slight favorite over Snyder and Snyder is the same (at this point) over Burak.  Snyder has been too active in World Level matches to be treated like a True Freshman.

 

285:  This is the only weight where Iowa has a definitive edge over both contenders.  Problem is this isn't a likely bonus point weight and he could easily take 5th and is very hard pressed to make the finals over McMullan and Gwiz.  (At this point) Minnesota and tOSU have fringe R12ers at this weight.

 

I just don't see a current formula that with all things being equal(meaning no slant in any teams favor) and looking strictly at the numbers puts anyone ahead of tOSU in the NCAA Tournament format if it was wrestled today.  And to me, that is what defines "Favorite".

Edited by MSU158

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I dont think Nate will have much trouble beating Dance. Waters will be a bit tougher but still within reach. Garret and Delgado no chance. Gilman has had Nates number albeeit in FS, but im hoping folkstyle result will be different. That said Gilman has the clear edge at this point. One of the, if not THE most intriguing weight classes this year.

As Lee Corso would say - Not so fast my friend!  Have Dance and Tomasello met each other more than once?  I know that Dance owns a freestyle win over him from 2012. Not sure if they have wrestled more than that one time.  Should be a good match that we won't have to wait long to see.  I'm psyched to see that dual - lots of good matchups.  I hope Hunter Stieber is wrestling by then so we can see that matchup with Carter as well.

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As Lee Corso would say - Not so fast my friend!  Have Dance and Tomasello met each other more than once?  I know that Dance owns a freestyle win over him from 2012. Not sure if they have wrestled more than that one time.  Should be a good match that we won't have to wait long to see.  I'm psyched to see that dual - lots of good matchups.  I hope Hunter Stieber is wrestling by then so we can see that matchup with Carter as well.

The real question is will Ryan actually wrestle Hunter against Carter or will he hold him out? ;)

 

(Note this is not a shot at Logan at the NWCA)

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Guys,

 

My debate centered around who is "currently" the favorites.  I have NO doubt things may change considerably by March, but on paper I really believe tOSU is the current, prohibitive favorite.

 

125:  The point difference between Gilman and Tomasello(at this point) looks to be negligible.  Minnesota looks to be the only other true contender and they will fall far behind at this weight.

 

I just don't see how this is the case  Gilman has beaten Tomasello repeatedly with one match being a close one.  Gilman beat Jesse Delgado and Dylan Peters in Folkstyle.  Gilman just took third in World Freestyle, same as Snyder.  Tomasello...beat Steve Micic and has a singular (though admittedly nice) Freestyle win over Nahshon Garrett.

 

133:  The point difference (at this point) between all 3 teams, again, looks to be negligible.

 

You seem to be picking and choosing when to use a standard. JDJ has flaked out at the NCAA tournament while both Iowa and Minny have an AA at the weight.  Looking through his record he has yet to beat a Minny or Iowa starter.

 

141:  This will be a huge gain for tOSU.  Dardanes has been a NCAA tournament disappointment similar to Moore but he does have the potential to shorten the gap.

 

Fair.

 

149:  Again(at this point)  this appears to be a huge gain for tOSU.

 

Fair, but again, he has now missed wrestleoffs and the teams first competition.

 

157:  Dylan Ness should be a big helper for Minnesota but Demas has a chance to keep the gap manageable.  Iowa has yet to show anything here.(at this point)

 

I don't see how you can call the gap between Demas and Ness manageable, especially with Ness' pinning proclivities.

 

165:  (At this point) all the data would make me put Moore and Jordan dead even.  Minnesota loses a lot here.

 

Fair enough.

 

174:  Evans and Storley are big here but what Kokesh and Brown do could again(at this point) allow the gap between them and Martin to stay manageable.

 

Disagree again.  Martin has a total of 3 wins in the NCAA tournament, all of them in the 1st or 2nd round of consolations, all regular decisions for a grand total of 1 1/2 points.

 

184:  (At this point) Courts is the favorite.  R12 under his belt and 32 wins last year.  I don't have an issue with picking Brooks or even Pfarr later in the season, but (at this point) Courts is the favorite.

 

I disagree pretty vehemently on this one.  Both Pfarr and Brooks wrestled D1 matches last year and are stylistic nightmares for Courts and his gas tank.

 

197:  Schiller is (at this point) a very slight favorite over Snyder and Snyder is the same (at this point) over Burak.  Snyder has been too active in World Level matches to be treated like a True Freshman.

 

Schiller is the favorite, and I don't see how you can have Snyder over Burak at this point, although I think he'll end up being far better.

 

285:  This is the only weight where Iowa has a definitive edge over both contenders.  Problem is this isn't a likely bonus point weight and he could easily take 5th and is very hard pressed to make the finals over McMullan and Gwiz.  (At this point) Minnesota and tOSU have fringe R12ers at this weight.

 

I just don't see a current formula that with all things being equal(meaning no slant in any teams favor) and looking strictly at the numbers puts anyone ahead of tOSU in the NCAA Tournament format if it was wrestled today.  And to me, that is what defines "Favorite".

 

 

 

 

My answers in bold above.

Edited by VakAttack

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There should be a rule that you can't mention Gilman's win over Delgado without mentioning his loss to Brancale. 

 

 

 

Nice rule, FT. I second this motion!

 

This year's Iowa squad is the shakiest #1 team I have seen in a while. Maybe the pollsters were drunk. :-)

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i think the rule should be if you mention any wrestler you have to also recite the result of every match they every wrestled. that will make the conversations even more funner. just wrestling fans posting list after list of wrestling results. so much fun. 

 

 

I'll go first.  

 

Cael Sanderson. He beat everyone. 

 

Your turn.

Edited by TBar1977

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Except Damian Hahn

 

 

 

Funny, this list says Cael had a perfect record. 

 

Cael Sanderson's perfect record

Freshman year — 184 pounds     Opponent/School Result Record/Dual record Cyclone Open     E. Brown (Neosha CC) W-MD 15-4 0-0/0-0 L. Bridgeforth (unattached) W-TF 20-5 0-0/0-0 C. Koop (unattached) W-TF 27-6 0-0/0-0 Lucas Kluever (Iowa State-unatt.) W-MD 13-4 1-0/0-0 Nick Preston (Ohio State) W-MD 17-9 2-0/1-0 Steve Bartolotta (Cumberland) W-Fall 3:53 3-0/2-0 Josh Heffernan (Ohio) W-MD 13-4 4-0/3-0 Steve Alf (Wisconsin) W-TF 24-8 5-0/4-0 *George Flannick (Marquette) W-TF 20-5 6-0/5-0 at Simpson Duals     Joe Brougard (Augustana) W-TF 20-5 (4:00) 7-0/6-0 Steve Burleson (Coe) W-Fall 1:57 8-0/7-0 Brant LaGrange (Simpson) W-MD 21-8 9-0/8-0 B.J. Shelly (Cornell) W-Fall 3:21 10-0/9-0 William Rufis (Ellsworth) W-Fall :53 10-0/9-0 Paul Jenn (Iowa) W-TF 19-4 11-0/10-0 Tom Ciezki (Northwestern) W-TF 23-7 (6:30) 12-0/11-0 at Midlands Championships (1st place)     Mike Gadsby (Penn) W-TF 19-4 (4:00) 13-0/11-0 James Brimm (Michigan State) W-D 5-0 14-0/11-0 Greg Gingeleskie (Navy) W-D 5-0 15-0/11-0 Aaron Simpson (Sunkist Kids WC) W-D 9-3   John Van Doren (Lehigh) W-D 11-4 16-0/11-0 Ryan Rettke (Minnesota State-Mankato) W-Fall 5:29 17-0/12-0 at National Duals     Tom Ciezki (Northwestern) W-D 6-3 18-0/13-0 Casey Strand (Arizona State) W-Fall 1:14 19-0/14-0 Mark Munoz (Oklahoma State) W-D 5-1 20-0/15-0 Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-MD 20-8 21-0/16-0 Paul Jenn (Iowa) W-MD 10-2 22-0/17-0 Mark Munoz (Oklahoma St.) W-MD 10-2 23-0/18-0 Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-Fall 6:40 24-0/19-0 Nebraska W-Forfeit 25-0/20-0 at All-Star Duals     Vertus Jones (West Virginia) W-D 6-5 26-0/20-0 Scott Coleman (BYU) W-MD 17-7 27-0/21-0 Matt Carpenter (Southern Colorado) W-TF 22-7 28-0/22-0 Jason Moore (Missouri) W-MD 19-6 29-0/23-0 Tony Spiker (Truman State) W-Fall 30-0/24-0 Casey Strand (Arizona State) W-D 6-2 31-0/25-0 Ken Bigley (UNI) W-TF 5:51 32-0/26-0 at Big 12 Championship     Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-MD 13-5 33-0/27-0 Brad Vering (Nebraska) W-D 9-5 34-0/27-0 at NCAA Championship     Josh Dideon (Cleveland State) W-Fall 4:46 35-0/26-0 Nate Patrick (Illinois) W-MD 18-6 36-0/26-0 Andy Hrovat (Michigan) W-Fall 4:24 37-0/26-0 Brad Vering (Nebraska) W-Fall 1:58 38-0/26-0 Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) W-D 6-1 39-0/26-0 * 197 pounds    
Sophomore year — 184 pounds
    Opponent/School Result Record/Dual record Ryan Rettke (Minnesota State-Mankato) W-TF 26-11 (7:00) 1-0/1-0 at Harold Nichols Open (Fort Dodge, Iowa)     Bouwman (Waldorf) W-D 20-5 1-0/1-0 Schmauss (Iowa Central) W-F 3:44 1-0/1-0 Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) W-D 7-4 2-0/1-0 at Omaha Open (Omaha, Nebraska)     Swarm (Nebraska-Kearney) W-TF 24-5 3-0/1-0 Andorf (Wartburg) W-MD 17-7 4-0/1-0 Jessman Smith (Iowa) W-TF 17-2 5-0/1-0 Damion Hahn (Minnesota) W-D 4-3 6-0/1-0 Joe Terrill (Wisconsin) W-TF 23-7 (6:08) 7-0/2-0 at Simpson Duals     Chad Karnal (Augustana) W-F 3:55 8-0/3-0 B.J. Shelley (Cornell) W-TF 22-6 (3:40) 9-0/4-0 Nathan Ackerman (Simpson) W-TF 17-2 (5:00) 10-0/5-0 Joel Schrimpf (Minnesota State-Mankato) W-F 4:35 11-0/6-0 Paul Jenn (Iowa) W-Disq., 22-7 12-0/7-0 Donavan True (Ohio State) W-F 0:38 13-0/8-0 at Midlands Championship     Joe Cotant (Michigan State) W-TF 20-5 (4:44) 14-0/8-0 Brian Falciglia (Bucknell) W-F 3:52 15-0/8-0 Sean Salmon (Montana State-Northern) W-TF 20-5 (4:15) 16-0/8-0 Lionel Halsey (Cal-Bakersfield) W-D 5-1 17-0/9-0 Kevin Vogel (Cliff Keen WC) W-MD 17-5 17-0/9-0 Nate Patrick (Illinois) W-D 7-2 18-0/9-0 at Lone Star Duals     Isaac Weber (Oregon State) W-MD 16-7 19-0/10-0 Cash Edwards (Boise State) W-TF (4:54) 20-0/11-0 Dave Murray (Lock Haven) W-F 5:36 21-0/12-0 Hofstra W-Forfeit 22-0/13-0 at National Duals     Jeff Knupp (Penn State) W-TF 21-6 (7:00) 23-0/14-0 Lionel Halsey (Cal State Bakersfield) W-F 3:14 24-0/15-0 Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-F 1:53 25-0/16-0 Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) W-MD 8-0 26-0/17-0 Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) W-MD 20-9 27-0/18-0 Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-TF 19-4 28-0/19-0 at NWCA All-Star match     Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) W-D 6-1 29-0/20-0 John Maze (Missouri) W-TF 27-10 (5:00) 30-0/21-0 Mike Marshall (Arizona State) W-F 2:49 31-0/22-0 Charles McTorry (Nebraska) W-TF 22-6 (4:07) 32-0/23-0 Kyle Hansen (Northern Iowa) W-F 2:57 33-0/24-0 at Big 12 Championships     Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-MD 17-7 34-0/24-0 Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) W-D 8-4 35-0/24-0 at NCAA Championships     Adam Schaaf (Millersville) W-F 3:51 36-0/24-0 Dax Pecaro (U.N.C. Green) W-TF 21-6 (7:00) 37-0/24-0 Rob Rohn (Lehigh) W-TF 20-5 (7:00) 38-0/24-0 Brandon Eggum (Minnesota) W-MD 16-5 39-0/24-0 Vertus Jones (West Virginia) W-MD 19-6 40-0/24-0
Junior year — 184 pounds
    Opponent/School Result Record/Dual record Missouri Open     Curcio (Oklahoma) W-F, 5:15 1-0 DeNisco (Wisconsin) W-F, 5:25 2-0 Lambrecht (Oklahoma) W-MD, 12-4 3-0 Sveda (Indiana) W-MD, 16-3 4-0 Mike Odle (Loras) W-F, 3:51 5-0 Anton Talamantes (Ohio State) W-MD, 20-6 6-0 at Simpson Duals     Ben Blood (Coe) W-TF, 18-3 7-0 Paul Okins (Minn. St. Mankato) W-TF, 19-3 8-0 Bert Watford (William Penn) W-F, :51 9-0 Adam Kellogg (Simpson) W-F, 2:55 10-0 Jeff Pangborn (Central Michigan) W-F, 1:22 11-0 Jessman Smith (Iowa) W-F, 2:17 12-0 at Midlands Championships     Josh Bocks (UNC-Greensboro) W-F, 3:26 13-0 Marcus Schontube (Penn) W-D, 16-10 14-0 Francis Volpe (Harvard) W-F, 5:11 15-0 Viktor Sveda (Indiana) W-MD, 14-5 16-0 Nate Patrick (Illinois) W-MD, 16-7 17-0 at Lone Star Duals     Francis Volpe (Harvard) W-TF 18-0 Ralph DeNisco (Wisconsin) W-MD, 17-6 19-0 Jason Rossotti (Fresno State) W-F, :35 20-0 Ralph Everett (Hofstra) W-F, 4:04 21-0 at National Duals     Ed Aliakseyenka (Montclair St.) W-TF, 6:45 22-0 Josh Lambrecht (Oklahoma) W-MD, 16-8 23-0 Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma St.) W-MD, 14-3 24-0 Andy Hrovat (Michigan) W-F, :38 25-0 Jessman Smith (Iowa) W-TF, 6:44 26-0 Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma State) W-D, 10-3 27-0 at All-Star Meet     Shawn Scannel (Rider) W-F, :39 28-0 Josh Lambrecht (Oklahoma) W-TF, 25-10 29-0 Ry Stone (Missouri) W-F, 1:43 30-0 R.D. Pursell (Arizona State) W-F, 3:49 31-0 Matt Fletcher (Nebraska) W-F, 4:55 32-0 Kyle Hansen (Northern Iowa) W-MD, 21-8 33-0 at Big 12 Championship (1st place)     Ry Stone (Missouri) W-F, 5:16 34-0 Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma St.) W-D, 8-3 35-0 at NCAA Championship (1st place)     Kyle Hanson (Northern Iowa) W-TF, 7:00 (24-9) 36-0 Jeremy Wilson (Portland St.) W-F, 1:37 37-0 Jessman Smith (Iowa) W-TF, 6:16 (21-6) 38-0 Victor Sveda (Indiana) W-MD, 21-7 39-0 Daniel Cormier (Oklahoma St.) W-D, 8-4 40-0
Senior year — 197 pounds
    Opponent/School Result Record/Dual record Cyclone Open (Fort Dodge, Iowa) 1st place     Kovarik (Iowa Central) W-F, 4:29 0-0 Broadway (William Penn) W-TF, 21-6 1-0 Bietz (Iowa Central) W-TF, 4:50 1-0 Wallace (Nebraska-Omaha) W-F, 4:56 2-0 Chris Skretkowicz (Hofstra) W-F, 2:20 3-0 Keystone Classic (Philadelphia, Pa.) 1st place     Nick Thomas (Penn) W-F, 5:53 4-0 Peter Mosley (Brown) W-F, 4:50 5-0 Daegen Smith (Duke) W-F, 2:45 6-0 Greg Sawyer (Rider) W-TF, 6:37 7-0 Brent Miller (West Virginia) W-TF, 20-5 (3:20) 8-0 Simpson Duals (Indianola, Iowa)     Aaron Granell (Augustana) W-F, 3:35 9-0 Joe Compton (Cornell) W-TF, 23-7 10-0 Coe College W-Forfeit 11-0 Bart George (Simpson) W-F, :15 12-0 Jareck Horton (Wisconsin) W-F, 2:34 13-0 Ryan Fulsaas (Iowa) W-F, 1:41 14-0 Midlands (Evanston, Ill.) 1st place     Jim Kassner (E. Illinois) W-F, 2:28 15-0 Nick Curby (Illinois) W-F, 2:54 16-0 Chris Skretkowlz (Hofstra) W-TF, 22-5 (5:10) 17-0 Jon Trenge (Lehigh) W-MD, 16-5 18-0 Lee Fullhart (Team Excel) W-D, 5-3 18-0 Jason Payne (Northern Iowa) W-F, 4:03 19-0 National Duals (Columbus, Ohio)     Erik Gladish (Arizona State) W-F, 4:11 20-0 Tommy Grossman (Oklahoma) W-F, 4:38 21-0 Bill Stouffer (Central Michigan) W-F, 3:22 22-0 Will Gruenwald (Oklahoma State) W-F, 1:31 23-0 Kyle Smith (Michigan) W-F, 2:24 24-0 Iowa W-Forfeit 25-0 Jason Gore (North Carolina State) W-F, 4:32 26-0 All-Star Classic     Jon Trenge (Lehigh) W-D, 6-1 27-0 William Gruenwald (Oklahoma State) W-F, 4:40 28-0 Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-F, 1:23 29-0 Scott Barker (Missouri) W-TF, 22-7 (7:00) 30-0 Scott Hollingsworth (Arizona State) W-F, 4:50 31-0 Justin Ruiz (Nebraska) W-TF, 25-9 (6:27) 32-0 Jason Payne (Northern Iowa) W-TF, 23-7 (6:21) 33-0 Big 12 Championships (1st place)     Tom Grossman (Oklahoma) W-TF, 24-8 (5:13) 34-0 Scott Barker (Missouri) W-TF, 21-4 (4:19) 35-0

 

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Vak,

 

I tried to stay uniform throughout.

 

I see 125 as a 3rd or 4th for Clark and a 5th or 6th for Tomasello.  Negligible point differential.

 

133  All 3 have question marks going in, 2 are changing weights and 1 has yet to AA.  Still, 133 has cleared out to a point that I would be shocked if Dijulius doesn't sneak in around 7th.  Dardanes and Clark should fill in somewhere between 3-5.  Again to me that is negligible.

 

141-149 we see eye to eye.

 

157  Has moved around a bit.  Ness is such a wildcard he is hard to predict(at this point).  Personally, I would pick him to win it all but that isn't the point(at this point).

 

165 We agree

 

174  I am not arguing that Martin is near as good as Evans or Storley.  I am arguing that 174 is thin enough after the top4 that he could easily sneak into a 6-8 slot.  If the prior two take 3rd and 4th the margin could be slim.

 

184  Until  Brooks or Pfarr have wrestled at the NCAA tournament or beat Courts heads up I can't put them even or ahead of Courts.  I think Jordan is better than Moore but the best I would do now is put him even with Moore and Jordan hasn't lost a DI match yet.

 

197  The only reason I have Schiller above Snyder is the same reason I have listed above.  However, Burak hasn't shown enough to warrant the same.  Snyder has done enough over the past year to warrant being rated ahead of Burak.  Also, I know Schiller just beat Cox but if anything that match made me realize how much better Cox is.  When his gas tank is ready in March that is a 2 or 3 takedown difference in Cox's favor.

 

285  Iowa really, really, really needs this weight to win.

 

Please remember this is about current(at this point) favorites to win an NCAA tournament Championship.  There are a multitude of arguments for why it could and very well may change.  My point is NOW!

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