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http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/251846-2014-Bill-Farrell-International/video/753394-70kg-Semi-finals-Jordan-Oliver-USA-vs-Adam-Hall-USA

Apologies if this is still behind the pay wall. If you don't want to watch the whole match, skip to the 7:00 mark of the video to see the ref completely hose Oliver with 0:02 left in the match. Oliver leads 2-2 with criteria, and tries to kill the last 0:30 by downblocking and dancing around Hall. Oliver stays in the center, but Hall can't get to any offense, so the ref dings Oliver for a 1pt Fleeing the Hold penalty.

 

We all want refs to call stalling more often in folkstyle, but holy cow is this the other extreme.

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Seems like there might be a new point of emphasis that freestylers are required to stay in physical contact now?  I'm just guessing from the bit of the tournament I was able to watch.  If that's the case, I'm guessing it won't last long.

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While that may be a technically correct call it is very rarely called.  That is the problem.  If it were consistently called then JO would have known to stay more offensive.  Whatever the rule set, it just needs to be consistently called.

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While that may be a technically correct call it is very rarely called.  That is the problem.  If it were consistently called then JO would have known to stay more offensive.  Whatever the rule set, it just needs to be consistently called.

 

Exactly. How is Oliver supposed to know that this ref will call that "fleeing the hold" if he's never seen a ref make that call before? The ref also hit him with a penalty for "locking fingers," which I found pretty shocking too. Aside from the two penalty points, Hall only earned one pushout and manages to defeat Oliver who earned a takedown.

 

This feels like a situation that a diehard folkstyle fan has made up to illustrate why freestyle rules are still wonky.

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Exactly. How is Oliver supposed to know that this ref will call that "fleeing the hold" if he's never seen a ref make that call before? The ref also hit him with a penalty for "locking fingers," which I found pretty shocking too. Aside from the two penalty points, Hall only earned one pushout and manages to defeat Oliver who earned a takedown.

 

This feels like a situation that a diehard folkstyle fan has made up to illustrate why freestyle rules are still wonky.

 

The grabbing of the fingers was the right call. He was informally warned for it. Then cautioned for it. And then he went back to it again and it was a point. The call at the end was the right call as well. People may disagree with the timing but Oliver was avoiding wrestling and avoiding contact. 

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The grabbing of the fingers was the right call. He was informally warned for it. Then cautioned for it. And then he went back to it again and it was a point.

 

I've seen plenty of freestyle refs allow wrestlers to interlock fingers. Sometimes they'll swat the hands away, or give a caution, but I have never seen a penalty point. Whether or not it's a rule, Oliver couldn't have expected that call, or the fleeing the hold call, to actually happen.

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It doesn't get called that much that but it's been a rule for a long time.  Oliver- and his coaches- must be aware that fleeing can and does get called at the end of matches, especially if a guy is avoiding contact.  When I was competing in freestyle we were always conscious to avoid the fleeing call when stalling out the last few seconds of a match.  (Obviously it's not called consistently which, is frustrating).  

 

Grabbing fingers- usually the refs will just yell at you and sometimes slap your hand (which just looks so stupid) but they can and do award penalty points if you are consistently disobeying their instructions.

Edited by armspin

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Hasn't there always been an emphasis on "contact?" To me that looks like the correct call and Oliver was not maintaining contact and kept avoiding contact.

There's always been an emphasis on contact.  It's a question of degree.  Do the refs hassle the wrestlers immediately when they are not touching, or do they leave them alone for a while?

 

For example, if the refs had penalized John Smith every time he was not in physical contact with his opponent, he would not have been able to set up his low singles from the outside by backing up and dancing around.

 

Judging by the matches I watched online from the Bill Farrell tournament, it seemed like the refs were unusually vocal whenever the wrestlers weren't tied up.  I thought it could be something new, but I could certainly be wrong.

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There's always been an emphasis on contact.  It's a question of degree.  Do the refs hassle the wrestlers immediately when they are not touching, or do they leave them alone for a while?

 

For example, if the refs had penalized John Smith every time he was not in physical contact with his opponent, he would not have been able to set up his low singles from the outside by backing up and dancing around.

 

Judging by the matches I watched online from the Bill Farrell tournament, it seemed like the refs were unusually vocal whenever the wrestlers weren't tied up.  I thought it could be something new, but I could certainly be wrong.

 

Exactly. How is Oliver supposed to know that this ref will call that "fleeing the hold" if he's never seen a ref make that call before? The ref also hit him with a penalty for "locking fingers," which I found pretty shocking too. Aside from the two penalty points, Hall only earned one pushout and manages to defeat Oliver who earned a takedown.

 

This feels like a situation that a diehard folkstyle fan has made up to illustrate why freestyle rules are still wonky.

To both these comments/questions. The freestyle/greco matches I have been around(albeit not Senior level) the refs make a point to notify the wrestlers to make contact. I probably haven't seen more than a few fleeing calls such as the one in this match though.

 

Quanon,

From what I have seen the refs will hassle the wrestler(s) about contact after about 5-10 seconds of no action usually. It mainly depends upon the situation. As far as Smith goes, maybe that he was using that as a setup instead of just blocking as Oliver was is why he was not warned for it during his day.

 

 

The ref in this match is one of the best young officials in the USA right now and it wouldn't surprise me to see him at the Olympic level soon.

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To both these comments/questions. The freestyle/greco matches I have been around(albeit not Senior level) the refs make a point to notify the wrestlers to make contact. I probably haven't seen more than a few fleeing calls such as the one in this match though.

 

Quanon,

From what I have seen the refs will hassle the wrestler(s) about contact after about 5-10 seconds of no action usually. It mainly depends upon the situation. As far as Smith goes, maybe that he was using that as a setup instead of just blocking as Oliver was is why he was not warned for it during his day.

 

 

The ref in this match is one of the best young officials in the USA right now and it wouldn't surprise me to see him at the Olympic level soon.

 

The fleeing the hold call is definitely rare, especially if you're staying in the center.

 

The calls for contact seemed quick this tournament.  Could have been imaginary on my part.  We'll see as the tournaments continue to play out.

 

It seems to me that demanding constant contact is more important for Greco than it is for freestyle.

 

Not that anyone asked for my opinion, but my preference is for objective rules that incentivize behaviors, rather than having the referees penalize people at their discretion.  

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The grabbing of the fingers was the right call. He was informally warned for it. Then cautioned for it. And then he went back to it again and it was a point. The call at the end was the right call as well. People may disagree with the timing but Oliver was avoiding wrestling and avoiding contact. 

You see interlocking fingers a ton at the international level.  Why?  Probably because both guys are trying to tie up properly, starting low on the opponent's arm.  If both guys are trying to grab a wrist, you can get interlocking fingers.  I can't really imagine how interlocking fingers could just be one wrestler's fault.  Penalizing one guy for it is problematic -- you end up penalizing the guy who looks like he's not trying to get out of the hold, even though both are responsible.

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You guys are complaining about the ref making a call and "hosing" JO, but this is Freestyle!  That call had to be confirmed! This isn't Folkstyle where the refs are omnipotent.  The Judge or the Chair had to confirm this call with 2 seconds left.  The locking fingers too! 

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You see interlocking fingers a ton at the international level.  Why?  Probably because both guys are trying to tie up properly, starting low on the opponent's arm.  If both guys are trying to grab a wrist, you can get interlocking fingers.  I can't really imagine how interlocking fingers could just be one wrestler's fault.  Penalizing one guy for it is problematic -- you end up penalizing the guy who looks like he's not trying to get out of the hold, even though both are responsible.

well done quannon referencing that it's a good/common tactic to keep your hands down and work to win a wrist first. as a result there's often interlocking hand. does fila want to promote "bad" wrestling being that they are so against interlocking hands?

 

also, how can any ref tell who is stopping who in that situation? i lock my fingers on yours and then shake my hands like i'm trying to get away and you get penalized?

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You guys are complaining about the ref making a call and "hosing" JO, but this is Freestyle!  That call had to be confirmed! This isn't Folkstyle where the refs are omnipotent.  The Judge or the Chair had to confirm this call with 2 seconds left.  The locking fingers too! 

 

Only the Chair confirmed the call, the Judge white paddled, and the discussion during the challenge lasted more than 5 minutes. Hardly a unanimous endorsement from the officiating body. 

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does fila want to promote "bad" wrestling being that they are so against interlocking hands?

I think UWW wants scoring.

 

I remember having a conversation along these lines when Stan Dziedzic was discussing the rules on the forum.  I think that penalizing  interlocking fingers and blocking with the head were both supposed to be points of emphasis with the new rules set (at that time).  I tried to argue that blocking with the head was just good positioning and should not be penalized in freestyle.  Stan disagreed.

 

Here's the definition for passivity: "blocking, interlocking fingers, thwarting his opponent and/or generally avoiding wrestling."  

 

http://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/1-wrestling_rules_july_2014_eng.pdf

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Only the Chair confirmed the call, the Judge white paddled, and the discussion during the challenge lasted more than 5 minutes. Hardly a unanimous endorsement from the officiating body. 

 

Below is the rule: http://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/1-wrestling_rules_july_2014_eng.pdf

 

When there is less than 30 seconds remaining in either period, if all three of the refereeing body agree a wrestler is evading and/or blocking his opponent, then his/her opponent is awarded a point (i.e fleeing the hold). This situation can be challenged to the “Jury of Appeal”.

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Two things are frustrating here: 1) JO was not running.  He was close and blocking out.  Hall was not attacking hard.  While wrestlers need to know not to leave it in the hands of the ref, the ref also needs to know not to make the match.  Two seconds left is is not the right time to make that call. 2) What is more frustrating is the fact that JO has the ability to be the most prolific offensive wrestler, if not in the world, at least in our country.  He has, on a number of occasions, cost  himself by not attacking as he is capable. 

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