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Lehigh at Northwestern

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New rules need to be implemented to create incentives for competition and to minimize forfeits, particular with home team forfeits.  There may have been a problem @ NW related to kids going home for Thanksgiving and not being able to get back in time for a dual meet.  If this is the case then don't schedule the event.

 

New Rules:

* HOME forfeits should cost the team 5 pts and AWAY forfeits should cost the team 2 pts at the NCAA championships per offense.

 

* The forfeiting weight class should also lose at least one or two seeded positions at NCAAs if their weight class qualifies.

 

Lehigh with a smaller budget traveled and showed up with all their weight classes competing at a well funded B1G school who 20% of the dual matches.  Lehigh student athletes cut to make weight, and invested their Thanksgiving time with family to travel from PA to Chicago and compete, not to simply accept a forfeit.

Edited by skikayaker

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For comparison Lehigh wrestle Illinois Saturday and Northwestern on Sunday.

 

Lehigh wrestled Illinois and Illinois forfeited 125. Didn't see much complaining about it on here. Illinois has 28 wrestlers on its roster and three (1 true freshman) of those are 125 pounders, but they didn't put one on the mat. Nobody complaining or asking for redshirts to be pulled on the Illinois guys. Nobody talking about how well funded Illinois is or how the Lehigh athletes and families traveled to Champaign to compete over Thanksgiving.

 

Lehigh wrestles Northwestern and Northwestern forfeits 157 and 174. Northwestern has 18 wrestlers on its roster. They have one 141, one 149, one 157 (true freshman that has been starting), one 165, two 174 (1 true freshman). With Northwestern it is shame on NU... what an embarrasment... people asking for reshirts to be pulled or do whatever it takes to put guys on the mat because Lehigh traveled to a well funded B1G school over Thanksgiving to compete.

 

So was it the fact that NU forfeited 2 matches and Illinois only forfeited 1 that has you guys up in arms? Looking at the roster I don't see many options for NU if the starters are injured.

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Are we really going after Northwestern?  If it's true that their roster is capped at 20 people, of course they will have some forfeits from time to time. It's kind of a horrible bind for an athletic department to put a team in, but at least there are 9.9 scholarships going to wrestlers.  That's 9.9 people getting their education paid for at a world class university because they know how to wrestle.  

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I agree that is tough for a team if they only have 18 wrestlers.  Looking at their roster it would have been hard to fill the 157 spot.  Maybe they could have put Schmitt at 149 and bumped Tsirtsis to 157.   Not sure how many are injured as I have not seen Schmitt wrestle all year and that is two weight bump for him.  Brill is obviously hurt as he did not wrestle last week either.     

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Are we really going after Northwestern?  If it's true that their roster is capped at 20 people, of course they will have some forfeits from time to time. It's kind of a horrible bind for an athletic department to put a team in, but at least there are 9.9 scholarships going to wrestlers.  That's 9.9 people getting their education paid for at a world class university because they know how to wrestle.  

 

For now....

 

If Pariano keeps forfeiting two matches per dual and generating crowds you can count on two hands at home, let's see how long those 9.9 scholarships last, not to mention the program itself.

 

This is not about Northwestern, per se. It's about a system that makes this kind of embarassment OK, in spite of the fans and therefore the sport at large.

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Matt Brown wrestled 174, 184 and 97 for Penn State his first year. He'd go out and take on whomever Sanderson needed him to wrestle. If my memory is correct he beat a top ten or close to it 197 from Nebraska.

 

Brown wrestled James Nagashima in the Nebraska dual who was an undersized 197 pounder.

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Not trying to dump on NU

 

Do not know the details involving these two forfeits.

 

Recently WISC forfeited 125 vs Rider which proved to be the winning margin for RU.

 

Does arguing gainst Title 9 hold water when this happens?

 

Would be great to hear from an NU fan/person in the know about this situation

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That's 9.9 people getting their education paid for at a world class university because they know how to wrestle.

If there were no redshirts there would be even more kids benefiting from those 9.9 since kids would only use them for four years rather than five. Think of how many more wrestlers would get to benefit from that world class education!

 

Matt Brown wrestled 174, 184 and 97 for Penn State his first year. He'd go out and take on whomever Sanderson needed him to wrestle. If my memory is correct he beat a top ten or close to it 197 from Nebraska.

 

Brown wrestled James Nagashima in the Nebraska dual who was an undersized 197 pounder.

I really enjoyed Brown's matches at various weights. But I am pretty sure he was only put in because he had already used his redshirt. This is an instance where wrestling benefitted from having multiple quality wrestlers available for use. This is why you see Koll moving the lineup around so often at Cornell. They have no redshirting in the Ivy League so if a guy is on the roster he is burning eligibility as a result you might as well make use of him.

 

The Big Ten programs, just like many other programs, are always trying to forecast where they think a guy will be in the future and every coach is confident they can develop an athlete so they see a lot of improvements with a greater upside. I don't know this for sure, but I would imagine the trend came from the large influence Iowa had in college wrestling and others trying to emulate their success. However, I think the redshirting at Iowa was more of a result of guys just not being good enough to crack the lineup.

 

As long as teams are judged by the number of All-Americans at the end of the year and not how they match up against other teams throughout the year, there is no reason for a coach or program to change how they operate their program.

 

I don't blame Pariano, or Davis, or Kolat for not pulling guys from redshirt. They are all simply doing what is best to receive recognition at the NCAA championships. The NCAA recognition is what administrators and boosters want (until there are budget issues or a change in strategic priorities that makes fan attendance and other factors suddenly more important). I have a problem with the incentives our system creates not with the coaches (rational) reaction to those incentives.

Edited by Pinnum

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For now....

 

If Pariano keeps forfeiting two matches per dual and generating crowds you can count on two hands at home, let's see how long those 9.9 scholarships last, not to mention the program itself.

 

This is not about Northwestern, per se. It's about a system that makes this kind of embarassment OK, in spite of the fans and therefore the sport at large.

The camera's at NU are set up on one side of the mat and shoot to the bench seat bleachers, so it looks like you can count the number of fans there on two hands. If the camera faced the other way you would see that there are more fans there than you could count on your fingers and toes. Not thousands like some colleges get, but the same amount that have always been at NU duals since I started going to them 15-20 years ago.

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Not sure Brill is being redshirted anyway. He has wrestled in some of their dual meets to date.

 

I don't think they have enough wrestlers on their roster. Given they are easily one of the wealthiest universities in the world, you'd think there has to be some money somewhere that could be targeted to help the program. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Injuries do happen and its a long season. Unfortunately NU lost a few to graduation who still had a year of eligibility. Things like that are not always known by the coach during recruiting season. You fill what you think you need. I'm sure the coaches are figuring it out.

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I don't think they have enough wrestlers on their roster. Given they are easily one of the wealthiest universities in the world, you'd think there has to be some money somewhere that could be targeted to help the program. 

 

Maybe?  I'm not sure who the big donors are for NU wrestling.  I do know that tuition + room and board there is 65K a year, so the scholarships alone are a big burden financially.  Factor in coaches salaries, travel, trainers, insurance, etc, and i'm sure the team is running at a big loss. The same is likely true for all of their other teams (except probably football who gets the big ten $$$).  Maybe it is more of a Title IX issue though than the wrestling team specifically not carrying weight?  Also, the academic standards for the nonscholarship athletes may be fairly stringent at a place like Northwestern, so recruiting depth could be challenging.  

 

I don't actually know any details and am just speculating, but I think we should try to figure out the circumstances of their situation before we throw the coach under the bus.  It is worth looking into though, especially by the alumni and others who care for the program. 

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Maybe?  I'm not sure who the big donors are for NU wrestling.  I do know that tuition + room and board there is 65K a year, so the scholarships alone are a big burden financially.  Factor in coaches salaries, travel, trainers, insurance, etc, and i'm sure the team is running at a big loss. The same is likely true for all of their other teams (except probably football who gets the big ten $$$).  Maybe it is more of a Title IX issue though than the wrestling team specifically not carrying weight?  Also, the academic standards for the nonscholarship athletes may be fairly stringent at a place like Northwestern, so recruiting depth could be challenging.  

 

I don't actually know any details and am just speculating, but I think we should try to figure out the circumstances of their situation before we throw the coach under the bus.  It is worth looking into though, especially by the alumni and others who care for the program. 

I am just guessing it is a Title IX issue(someone posted their roster is capped at 20).  UVA is a very hard school to gain admission and not cheap and they have 40 on the roster.

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Forfeits are a Div1 issue that needs to be addressed.  They are a result of the "duals don't matter, only NCAA's counts" mindset.  How many times have you been excited about a big matchup only to see one of the wrestlers forfeit due to an undisclosed "injury".  This discussion is using Northwestern U as a springboard for ideas.  NU has not forfeited weights in the past anymore than any other team as far as I can remember.

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Forfeits are a Div1 issue that needs to be addressed.  They are a result of the "duals don't matter, only NCAA's counts" mindset.  How many times have you been excited about a big matchup only to see one of the wrestlers forfeit due to an undisclosed "injury".  This discussion is using Northwestern U as a springboard for ideas.  NU has not forfeited weights in the past anymore than any other team as far as I can remember.

 

Just read the Lehigh newsletter which stated that the 3 forfeits ILL and NU gave them over the weekend was more than LU has surrendered for the last decade...

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Forfeits are a Div1 issue that needs to be addressed.  They are a result of the "duals don't matter, only NCAA's counts" mindset.  How many times have you been excited about a big matchup only to see one of the wrestlers forfeit due to an undisclosed "injury".  This discussion is using Northwestern U as a springboard for ideas.  NU has not forfeited weights in the past anymore than any other team as far as I can remember.

 

 

So let me get this straight. If there was a duals national championship, then NW would not have forfeited two weights to Lehigh? Please tell me how a duals national championship in March was going to make Pariano wrestle Brill and Sebastian in November? 

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So let me get this straight. If there was a duals national championship, then NW would not have forfeited two weights to Lehigh? Please tell me how a duals national championship in March was going to make Pariano wrestle Brill and Sebastian in November?

The team would have to qualify for the championship based on their dual results during the regular season just like basketball, baseball, soccer, field hockey and others have to do. Yes, they could elect to not field weights just as a baseball team could elect to play with 8 players but it is a lot less likely they would concede those matches so easily since it would have a real baring on their post season.

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The team would have to qualify for the championship based on their dual results during the regular season just like basketball, baseball, soccer, field hockey and others have to do. Yes, they could elect to not field weights just as a baseball team could elect to play with 8 players but it is a lot less likely they would concede those matches so easily since it would have a real baring on their post season.

 

 

Would this put any more fans in their seats? Every single time they are on BTN or BTN2Go it looks like they have about 30 people in the stands, sometimes less. 

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all team scores except for the one at the NCAA tournament mean nothing, so there is no incentive to avoid forfeits. you can either penalize teams for forfeit weights in duals so that it somehow affects their potential finish at the NCAA tournament or change how the national championship is determined so that dual meets actually matter. 

 

or we can assume that the current system is perfect and just accept forfeits as part of that perfect system. 

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The team would have to qualify for the championship based on their dual results during the regular season just like basketball, baseball, soccer, field hockey and others have to do. Yes, they could elect to not field weights just as a baseball team could elect to play with 8 players but it is a lot less likely they would concede those matches so easily since it would have a real baring on their post season.

 

There's a lot missing in this comparison. Sure, at the NCAA D1 level you're pretty specialized in your position, but playing Left field vs Right field is a wash. Changing weight classes (and staying competitive) is much more than that. I do agree that there are too many forfeits, but the injury possibilities along with eligibility and retention concerns are a factor in those coach's heads, I'm sure. 

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Either duals matter or we should get rid of them all together and just go all in with tournaments. People don't treat duals like a head to head contest between two teams so they're just a collection of exhibition matches. Just like the Agon and Flow exhibition matches no one cares about them.

 

Duals should be the only result that matters for a team.

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