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J'Den Cox at 285

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Surely, Eblen-Cox at 197 and 285 is a better lineup than Cox at 197 and one of the continuously-reproducing members of the Forfeit Family at 285...

 

Makes sense for the team, but how will Cox react at that option and how high can he place at nationals giving up the BIG difference in size and strength?

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Makes sense for the team, but how will Cox react at that option and how high can he place at nationals giving up the BIG difference in size and strength?

 

 

yeah, after all he does have sights on 4X

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Mellon is a senior & is out for the first semester.  I think they're trying to get all three (Cox-Eblen-Miklus) in the lineup as much as they can while Mellon is out.  Cox will likely move back down when Mellon is eligible.  I imagine it's a little bit of a pull for Cox & Miklus, so this allows Cox to not have to make weight @ 197 as much.  After this year, Cox could stay @ 197 or move up.  He may take an Olympic redshirt & go 213, then move up to Heavy in 2016-2017.  It would allow Miklus to move up to 197 after this year.  Just my opinion.  

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Nothing against Mellon, but he's lost several matches in open tournaments to non-D1 opponents already this season.  I understand that he's a previous NCAA qualifier, and those non-D1 guys are at the top of their divisions, but he's clearly not at the same level as the top tier heavyweights in D1.  Could J'Den be?  I certainly think he can compete.

 

The question is...what's more important?  J'Den wanting to be a 4x'er or a better lineup for the team in a year where they can compete for a top 3 finish at the NCAA tournament?  I think the team is more important.  The place to find out will be the Scuffle, where 3 of the top 5 heavyweights will be competing.  If J'Den goes Hwt. at the Scuffle and is able to compete with Gwiz, Coon and Marsden, then I think it absolutely makes sense to keep him there.

 

As SHP said...what lineup will score more team points?  Miklus/Cox/Mellon, or Miklus/Eblen/Cox?

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My thoughts:  Coaching staff knew since May that Mellon would be ineligible for fall semester, yet they did not tell J'Den to bulk up and go HWT, so I don't think there's much chance Cox wrestles HWT at the Scuffle.  Also, Cox bumping to HWT for the occasional dual doesn't alleviate the weight cut for either Miklus or Cox as they continue to make the lower weight and only wrestle up if the coaches aren't positive they can afford to forfeit HWT.  It sucks for Eblen,Miklus and Mellon that one of them gets bumped from the lineup, but they knew the situation long ago and top teams have quality guys not in the lineup all the time.  You have to compete for the spot and earn it.  As far as which situation is best for the team, I'll leave that in Brian's capable hands.  Treating your wrestlers with respect and loyalty might be the best policy for long-term success.

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The question is...what's more important?  J'Den wanting to be a 4x'er or a better lineup for the team in a year where they can compete for a top 3 finish at the NCAA tournament?  I think the team is more important.  The place to find out will be the Scuffle, where 3 of the top 5 heavyweights will be competing.  If J'Den goes Hwt. at the Scuffle and is able to compete with Gwiz, Coon and Marsden, then I think it absolutely makes sense to keep him there.

I was about to post here about this.

 

First, I'll answer you question with a couple questions of my own: Who won 184 at NCAA's back in 2000? What team took third at that same tournament?

 

I personally think J'Den has earned the right to go at a weight class that gives him a good chance at standing atop the podium at the end of the season, but there is no harm in testing the waters at the scuffle. If he wins the scuffle, then it's a no brainer to have him go heavyweight since he'd be the favorite to win in march and it would strengthen the team. If he loses at the scuffle, then let the man compete at his proper weight class and earn himself another title in march.

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The question is...what's more important?  J'Den wanting to be a 4x'er or a better lineup for the team in a year where they can compete for a top 3 finish at the NCAA tournament?  I think the team is more important.  The place to find out will be the Scuffle, where 3 of the top 5 heavyweights will be competing.  If J'Den goes Hwt. at the Scuffle and is able to compete with Gwiz, Coon and Marsden, then I think it absolutely makes sense to keep him there.

 

As SHP said...what lineup will score more team points?  Miklus/Cox/Mellon, or Miklus/Eblen/Cox?

I vote for team results too.

 

I think whatever makes the better dual lineup should be used. If that means moving guys around from week to week to get the best matchups then that is what you do. Missouri could have a great dual season. They have some favorable matchups and the duals with Cornell and Oklahoma State could be a tossup. Being in the finals of the National Duals would be great for the program.

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I was about to post here about this.

 

First, I'll answer you question with a couple questions of my own: Who won 184 at NCAA's back in 2000? What team took third at that same tournament?

 

I personally think J'Den has earned the right to go at a weight class that gives him a good chance at standing atop the podium at the end of the season, but there is no harm in testing the waters at the scuffle. If he wins the scuffle, then it's a no brainer to have him go heavyweight since he'd be the favorite to win in march and it would strengthen the team. If he loses at the scuffle, then let the man compete at his proper weight class and earn himself another title in march.

 

In 2000, Cael won at 184 and MN placed third...not quite sure I see your point.

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In 2000, Cael won at 184 and MN placed third...not quite sure I see your point.

My point is that I'm sure the vast majority of wrestling fans know off the top of their head that Cael won, and if Cox becomes a 4-timer they'll remember his victories as well. However, I doubt there are many people who could tell you off the top of their head with certainty that Minny was third that year. It's just not as memorable in the long run. Hence why I feel Cox's quest for four isn't worth destroying for a remote shot at a team trophy.

 

Now if Cox proves he can take out the big guns at Hwy prior to NCAA's, then it becomes a different story.

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BRM - You make some good points.  And I certainly don't think that Cox should bump permanently unless he can compete with the top 5.  However, if he can (and I think he should at the Scuffle to test this), I think making the team that much stronger by squeezing Eblen in vs. Mellon is the right thing to do.

 

I do agree with you though that his personal goals should be taken into strong consideration if the coaching staff were to consider this possibility.

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I do agree with you though that his personal goals should be taken into strong consideration if the coaching staff were to consider this possibility.

Oklahoma State, Iowa State, and Cornell all have a four-timer and Ohio State may be added to the list after this year.

 

It is the job of the coach to put out his best team to represent the University. The difference between Taylor and Dake's ability to attract recruits is miniscule. Taylor's brand is of a very high quality despite 'only' having two titles. What made Taylor's brand so high was all the attention on the Penn State's team success.

 

With the exception of Cael's undefeated run, I don't see any individual effort attracting more attention than team results.

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Oklahoma State, Iowa State, and Cornell all have a four-timer and Ohio State may be added to the list after this year.

 

It is the job of the coach to put out his best team to represent the University. The difference between Taylor and Dake's ability to attract recruits is miniscule. Taylor's brand is of a very high quality despite 'only' having two titles. What made Taylor's brand so high was all the attention on the Penn State's team success.

 

With the exception of Cael's undefeated run, I don't see any individual effort attracting more attention than team results.

Realistically, what are Missouri's chances of winning NCAA's this year?

 

If you were a top recruit, I don't think you would care all that much if the school you were considering placed 4th vs 5th at NCAA's. I'd argue you'd be more likely to care if your school produced a champion or not. Even more than that however, I'd argue you would care if a championship level athlete was forced out of their natural weight class and a likely individual title. Personally If i was one of the top 100 or so p4p recruits in the nation, I wouldn't consider any school that set a precedent for sacrificing a wrestlers chance at an NCAA title for what would likely be a minor improvement in team performance.

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There is no way Mizzou is a better tournament team with Cox at HWT to fit in a guy who is at best 50/50 to AA.  Even if he does well at something like the Scuffle, he'll be too undersized and HWT is too low scoring to assure anything at nationals.  Cox is pretty much guaranteed top3 at 197, at HWT he could possibly not place with such a late-season jump.  As great as Cox is, imagine him sizewise next to someone like Coon or Telford.  Plus he is such a hammer on top, really rides guys out and wears them down.  Won't be able to do that consistently against guys 30+ pounds heavier than him.  Give him an offseason to bulk up and get to 230+ fine but he made 197 with one hours weighins on Saturday, it's too late to do a move like that. 

 

I don't mean to disrespect Elben as he is tough and has gutted it out but at the end of the day neither he nor Milkus have won anything of consequence so far.  You can't mess around with a returning national champ, top3 finishes are worth too many points at nationals. 

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Realistically, what are Missouri's chances of winning NCAA's this year?

 

If you were a top recruit, I don't think you would care all that much if the school you were considering placed 4th vs 5th at NCAA's. I'd argue you'd be more likely to care if your school produced a champion or not. Even more than that however, I'd argue you would care if a championship level athlete was forced out of their natural weight class and a likely individual title. Personally If i was one of the top 100 or so p4p recruits in the nation, I wouldn't consider any school that set a precedent for sacrificing a wrestlers chance at an NCAA title for what would likely be a minor improvement in team performance.

 

 

+ 100

 

If they changed Cox to Hwt and WON the national title, then I'd understand it. If they changed his weight class and finished 4th instead of 5th then I'd feel as you feel.

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Why not throw Eblen or Miklus out at hwt to get all in the lineup? I would imagine you could probably get Eblen in the 200 lb range to wrestle. Remember PJ Tasser qualified for ncaa as a backup 174 a few years back, beating some close to the weight limit hwts to do so. I have to think as the season goes on Eblen will do better at hwt and help the team there. Bottom might be a struggle but if he can get a takedown and not have to go under he might be ok.

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The point is this.

 

Cox recently beat the #12 Hwt.

 

Eblen beat #8 @ 197.

 

Miklus beat #5 @ 184.

 

Mellon lost to the #16 Hwt as well as Division II's #2.

 

That tells me that you have 3 AA probabilities without Mellon, vs. 2 AA's and a NQ with him.

 

With all of that said, though, I agree that unless Missouri really has a chance at a team national championship, they shouldn't take away Cox's chance at being a 4x'er.  It sucks for Eblen, who has been a dedicated part of the team, but it is what it is.

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