Martinez versus Green on Friday

[MSU158 1,978]

I disagree.  It turned out Green gasses in the middle of the season just like last year.  But, I like what you were trying to do there.

[rstrong 75]

Certainly not me - I thought Green would have pulled one blast double to score.

 

I-Mart stayed close in and wrestled with solid strategery.

 

Yikes - I-Mart vs Ian Miller is going to be an absolute barn burner. If you haven't done it yet, put it on your calendar!

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

I disagree. It turned out Green gasses in the middle of the season just like last year. But, I like what you were trying to do there.

I am not trying to troll here, but he had a point. Green is extremely skilled but just not tough enough. You can call it conditioning or choking or not getting it done when it counts or whatever, but the kid has all the talent in the world yet is just not mentally tough enough to realize his full potential.

Edited January 24, 2015 by wrestlingnerd

[ironmonkey 157]

I will agree with some of the above posters.  I don't want to get involved saying someone isn't tough, but I do agree that skill and athleticism can account for success for some wrestlers that may not be "tough".  In other words, success is not a sign of toughness.  I have watched incredibly tough wrestlers have limited success because they lacked the skill and athleticism of their opponents, but never surrendered an inch mentally or physically uncontested.  At the same time, I have seen incredibly talented wrestlers that were super athletic and picked up technique fairly easily (or even made up techniques as they went), yet struggled when the going got tough. I don't believe success in the sport is always a sign of toughness.

[southend 239]

Martinez has to be pushed the entire match, to have a chance to beat him. Green isn't the person.

[jeffr_ideal 216]

Should be a good first round at National Duals, with Miller v. iMar and Stieber v. Port in the first round. 

 

• Drexel at Cornell

• Georgia Mason at Lehigh

• Virginia at Iowa

• Oklahoma at UT Chattanooga

• American University at Missouri

• Minnesota at North Dakota State

• Kent State at Illinois

• Ohio State at Edinboro

[TBar1977 4,481]

I disagree.  It turned out Green gasses in the middle of the season just like last year.  But, I like what you were trying to do there.

 

 

In case you had not noticed I expected Green to win the match, so I was in agreement with you before the match. I Mar rode Green like it was too easy. Green barely even got to his knees in that third period, and to me that shows a lack of what you were calling "toughness". I can therefore admit that I Mar out toughed him last night. No big deal. It is what it is. 

[MSU158 1,978]

I am sorry, that match didn't convince me "toughness" was a factor.  Still, my argument has never been that Green can't be "out toughed".  I just vehemently disagree that a High Schooler is tough while a 3x AA is not.  Now if you were comparing them to wrestlers at their respective levels I would digress.  But directly comparing Valencia's and Green's toughness to each other is rather laughable to me.

 

Also, I am not sure last night's match is the perfect measuring stick to knock on Green.  He has consistently looked gassed and had letdowns mid season.  Last year he lost to Michigan's backup.  If Martinez can do it in March, I will jump on the bandwagon.

[Gantry 1,872]

That first period was a lot of fun for no scoring.  Green had three solid attacks, no idea how IMart got out of those.  Green seems to get worse on bottom. 

 

Does Green have any top game this year either?  He was CRUSHING on top at NCAAs, teching Jordan and beating Ian Miller 13-1.  Where did that go?

[headshuck 2,586]

Also gone is the Mohammad Ali like persona.

[vsnej 197]

I will agree with some of the above posters.  I don't want to get involved saying someone isn't tough, but I do agree that skill and athleticism can account for success for some wrestlers that may not be "tough".  In other words, success is not a sign of toughness.  I have watched incredibly tough wrestlers have limited success because they lacked the skill and athleticism of their opponents, but never surrendered an inch mentally or physically uncontested.  At the same time, I have seen incredibly talented wrestlers that were super athletic and picked up technique fairly easily (or even made up techniques as they went), yet struggled when the going got tough. I don't believe success in the sport is always a sign of toughness.

 

I agree

 

When all things are similar, mental toughness is the deciding factor

 

I have seen Timothy McCall of WI wrestle twice on the Big Ten network and this guy seems to have the tools, technique, strength, etc.

 

He had the match in hand against both Burak at Midlands and Huntley last night (IMHO) through the first 2 periods - then it was like a switch went off and he lost focus and/or went into some kind of NFL prevent defense mode.

 

I hope this kid puts together 7 minutes because he can/should definitely be near the top of the podium in March

[BigApple 86]

I've got 54 years in this sport at several levels. Perhaps the best comment on toughness was made by Greg Strobel before the 1974 NCAA championship. When asked who'd he'd rather face in the finals Al Nacin from Iowa State or Ben Ohai from BYU, Strobel said Nacin. He said Nacin is slicker than Ohai, but you can make him quit. If you are wrestling Ohai and have a stick you couldn't make him quit, he'd try to take the stick away from you and hit you with it. Strobel defeated Ohai in OT to win his 2nd title at 190.

 

There are wrestlers who are both slick and tough: John Smith comes to mind. Gable was in the TV booth during John's NCAA finals match with Joe Melchoire. John is slicking the daylights out of Joe. One announcer says Melchoire needs a gun. Gable said John would just take it away from him.

 

I've always remembered what my Army buddy Len Kauffman told me. A move that won't work in the first period can work in the 3rd period if you've banged on his head enough that he isn't keeping his head up. This Iowa's strategy during Gable's years.

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

I will agree with some of the above posters. I don't want to get involved saying someone isn't tough, but I do agree that skill and athleticism can account for success for some wrestlers that may not be "tough". In other words, success is not a sign of toughness. I have watched incredibly tough wrestlers have limited success because they lacked the skill and athleticism of their opponents, but never surrendered an inch mentally or physically uncontested. At the same time, I have seen incredibly talented wrestlers that were super athletic and picked up technique fairly easily (or even made up techniques as they went), yet struggled when the going got tough. I don't believe success in the sport is always a sign of toughness.

Bingo.

 

Green is missing a champion's mental toughness. He is as physically capable as anyone in college in any weight class.

[ionel 2,431]

That first period was a lot of fun for no scoring.  Green had three solid attacks, no idea how IMart got out of those.  Green seems to get worse on bottom. 

 

Does Green have any top game this year either?  He was CRUSHING on top at NCAAs, teching Jordan and beating Ian Miller 13-1.  Where did that go?

Is it "Green seems to get worse on bottom" or just that you haven't seen how tough Martinez is on top?

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

I am sorry, that match didn't convince me "toughness" was a factor. Still, my argument has never been that Green can't be "out toughed". I just vehemently disagree that a High Schooler is tough while a 3x AA is not. Now if you were comparing them to wrestlers at their respective levels I would digress. But directly comparing Valencia's and Green's toughness to each other is rather laughable to me.

 

Also, I am not sure last night's match is the perfect measuring stick to knock on Green. He has consistently looked gassed and had letdowns mid season. Last year he lost to Michigan's backup. If Martinez can do it in March, I will jump on the bandwagon.

I think Valencia is tougher mentally than Green, although I doubt he is as good a wrestler at this point. I think age has little to do with mental toughness. Kyle Dake, the Brands brothers, and Randy Lewis are examples of guys who developed mental toughness early on in their careers. I think guys like that can be mentally tougher than some AAs while in HS. In their minds, they are never out of a match no matter what, and that didn't just appear as a trait in college, although college certainly improved it.

 

Green is an exceptional athlete and wrestler. He showed what he can do to elite wrestlers last year after Ness stuck him. In my opinion, he tends to give up too easily and gas too much when the pressure is on in the third. I have never seen Valencia yield an inch mentally, even when he was getting his ass kicked.

[Gantry 1,872]

Is it "Green seems to get worse on bottom" or just that you haven't seen how tough Martinez is on top?

 

Seen IMart plenty, he tough.  But did you see his match against Welch?   Ridden A TON in that match

[MSU158 1,978]

Yeah, I wasn't debating mental toughness.  When just the word "tough" is used in regards to wrestling I think physical toughness 1st and foremost.  That is why I have such a hard time comparing a High School boy to a 3X AA man.

 

Also, it takes a huge amount of mental toughness to bring it in wrestlebacks, and even more so in the round of 12 at the DI NCAA Championships. A lot of guys fold under that pressure.  Green has wrestled in the R12 3 times and won all three.  In addition, he has won all 3 of his Placement matches by major.  I think what i listed is a pretty good testament to his mental toughness.

[pennsyrules 222]

I enjoyed reading Big Apples post and definitely think mental toughness is a critical element for any top athlete.  However, I certainly don't think there is enough evidence to say that Green is not tough, either mentally or physically.  Green has had some lapses in certain matches but he has also(as mentioned above) wrestled back from some tough losses and just hammered a bunch of "tough" guys.  The kid just lost a match to another excellent wrestler.  Let it go and see how Green bounces back. I believe he has two more years left so we will see a lot more of him.

 

Ps.  Could a high school kid be mentally tougher than a DI wrestler?  Yes, but I wouldn't make any comparisons between the two until that high school kid starts competing against top Division I wrestlers.

Edited January 24, 2015 by pennsyrules

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Another way is to say his toughness shines when the stakes are not as high, and he folds under pressure and can't deliver in spit of his outlying physical abilities.

[wrestlingnerd 2,996]

Ps. Could a high school kid be mentally tougher than a DI wrestler? Yes, but I wouldn't make any comparisons between the two until that high school kid starts competing against top Division I wrestlers.

Agreed but Green is done after this year. He is a senior.

[BigApple 86]

 

Green doesn't seem to have the same mental toughness as his mentor Jordan Burroughs. Come crunch time Green hasn't gotten the job done at the NCAAs, I don't think that changes.

Edited January 25, 2015 by BigApple

[hammerlockthree 2,581]

Yeah, I wasn't debating mental toughness.  When just the word "tough" is used in regards to wrestling I think physical toughness 1st and foremost.  That is why I have such a hard time comparing a High School boy to a 3X AA man.

 

Also, it takes a huge amount of mental toughness to bring it in wrestlebacks, and even more so in the round of 12 at the DI NCAA Championships. A lot of guys fold under that pressure.  Green has wrestled in the R12 3 times and won all three.  In addition, he has won all 3 of his Placement matches by major.  I think what i listed is a pretty good testament to his mental toughness.

So i wasn't even kinda right?

[MSU158 1,978]

I will give you partial credit for calling Valencia tough. That part I agree with. :)

[Two_on_one 121]

Green will get it done in March, when it counts. 

[GoldenGofer 10]

I will give you partial credit for calling Valencia tough. That part I agree with. :)

He wasn't tough when Hall majored him recently.