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robnh

Martinez versus Green on Friday

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I just watched the match again. IMart has some sick hips. You can't teach some of the stuff he did. I remember when Bo Jordan beat him in HS, he said IMart was tough to wrestle because he was able to get really unexpected pressure from the hips that you weren't used to, making you feel off balance.

 

You could almost tell Green was done after the third shot he couldn't convert, momentum shifting to IMart. By the third, Green had the match already lost in his head while IMart looked like he could go another three periods. Very impressive win by the freshman against a 3x AA senior.

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What I look for early in a wrestler's career is does he lose a tough match and comeback and take 3rd. Guys who do that tend to eliminate a few mistakes or their opponent graduates.

 

Dieringer loses in OT to St. John as a freshman, then wins it the next year. Sometimes it's 2nd place as Ben Askren did to Chris Pendleton twice, before winning twice. Green may AA again, but I don't see him getting by Ness and Martinez.

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I have been impressed with Martinez all year, and on Friday he really showed up for his biggest test.  Brunson wrestled wel and tough, giving Kokesh all he could handle
But the rest of Illinois--wow, just pathetic effort, and at home in Huff Hall.

By the way, anyone know the attendance?  The place can seat over 3,000 and when they are involved there is a lot of noise.i

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I would like to add that I am extremely cautious about throwing around lame generalizations about toughness. James Green is probably tougher than me, but if you have to talk about the holes in his wrestling, his problem is that he quits. It's obvious. People talking about his technique on bottom are missing the point completely. 

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I'll say this: James Green is tough. Anyone who make it to the D1 level is tough; I don't care how talented you are or aren't. Nobody who wasn't tough would survive their first week in that room (Although I completely disagree that a D1 all-american is necessarily tougher than a high schooler).

 

With that said, the first I'd ever heard or seen of James Green was his state finals match his junior year in high school. I'm not sure how much relavance that match has today, but I'd be lying if I said the final few seconds of the match didn't leave a lasting impression in my mind.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/236647-2010-NJ-State-Championships/video/320856-140-1st-Hank-Stinson-Eastern-7-5-James-Green-Willingboro

Edited by BigRedMachine

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I'll say this: James Green is tough. Anyone who make it to the D1 level is tough; I don't care how talented you are or aren't. Nobody who wasn't tough would survive their first week in that room (Although I completely disagree that a D1 all-american is necessarily tougher than a high schooler).

 

With that said, the first I'd ever heard or seen of James Green was his state finals match his junior year in high school. I'm not sure how much relavance that match has today, but I'd be lying if I said the final few seconds of the match didn't leave a lasting impression in my mind.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/236647-2010-NJ-State-Championships/video/320856-140-1st-Hank-Stinson-Eastern-7-5-James-Green-Willingboro

That match is a perfect example of Green quitting early. That's why he will not win in March.

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Seen IMart plenty, he tough.  But did you see his match against Welch?   Ridden A TON in that match

 

 

 

Perhaps Welch is just as tough or tougher on top, didn't see that match - don't think they've wrestled this year(haven't found any results) but should on Feb 1 and think we will find out then.  The thing about Martinez is that he seems to be very good & tough in all 3 positions and has improved a lot during the year, but perhaps will have a better idea on Feb 1.

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There are times I shake my head at Green but he has some matches that are puzzling.  I think what's frustrating is he is so talented when he is on a roll.  Take a look at some of this kids wins and there are times when he looks unbeatable.

 

Has beaten the likes of Ness, St John, Taylor Walsh(major), Dylan Alton(major), Fleming(Major), Jason Welch, Steve Monk, peppleman, Brunson, and others.  He even moved up a weight to wrestle Sultzer and beat him.   I would say it is more inconsistency than to criticize his toughness.  As for losses, he has lost to Alton(then responded by majoring him) and also lost to Isaac Jordan only to beat him 15-0 in the rematch.  Throw in his shellacking of ian Miller and I still think he is the guy to beat.

 

 

ps. If he was from Ohio State I could use the, "He's only at 80%"  but I really don't think thats the issue.lol

Edited by pennsyrules

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I'll say this: James Green is tough. Anyone who make it to the D1 level is tough; I don't care how talented you are or aren't. Nobody who wasn't tough would survive their first week in that room (Although I completely disagree that a D1 all-american is necessarily tougher than a high schooler).

 

With that said, the first I'd ever heard or seen of James Green was his state finals match his junior year in high school. I'm not sure how much relavance that match has today, but I'd be lying if I said the final few seconds of the match didn't leave a lasting impression in my mind.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/236647-2010-NJ-State-Championships/video/320856-140-1st-Hank-Stinson-Eastern-7-5-James-Green-Willingboro

I'm not saying he isn't tough compared to some guy sitting around at starbucks, I'm talking about being a national champion. 

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I'll say this: James Green is tough. Anyone who make it to the D1 level is tough; I don't care how talented you are or aren't. Nobody who wasn't tough would survive their first week in that room (Although I completely disagree that a D1 all-american is necessarily tougher than a high schooler).

 

With that said, the first I'd ever heard or seen of James Green was his state finals match his junior year in high school. I'm not sure how much relavance that match has today, but I'd be lying if I said the final few seconds of the match didn't leave a lasting impression in my mind.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/236647-2010-NJ-State-Championships/video/320856-140-1st-Hank-Stinson-Eastern-7-5-James-Green-Willingboro

You use this video to show Green isn't tough?  That's a tough call.  I give Stinson credit for a nice takedown and the trapped arm tilt.  I didn't see anything like Green wasn't tough or quit. This is a rough crowd.

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That match is a perfect example of Green quitting early. That's why he will not win in March.

 

I was at A.C. watching the match and the turn of events in the last 10 seconds was definitely a stunner but Hank Stinson was a stud and returning champion (missed 2009 states/injured) and to his credit went after it and never gave up.

 

I think depicting James Green as "quitting early" from this match is grossly unfair.  There are a whole host of finalists in NCAA history who have felt they had a victory in hand, go into prevent mode to then lose in the final seconds - and many of these guys are not looked upon as "not tough" or "quitters".

 

BTW - the next year senior James Green went undefeated as the 145 lb state champion

 

He may not win in March but I believe he will be wrestling his best

 

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I truly don't think it is lack of effort.  I think he really gasses out.  Tougher matches definitely drain him more and if he doesn't get the early lead he doesn't seem to have the energy late to get it done.  Some guys just don't have the Metcalf gas tank.  Anyone who has wrestled has to remember how much harder it is to escape, against a very good opponent, late in the 3rd than it is at the start of the 2nd.  Add in wrestling a top notch DI opponent while being dead tired.  We get spoiled watching DI talent and expect all wrestlers to have the will power like Dake to still wrestle great when exhausted.  You have to realize Dake is an exception to the rule and definitely not the norm.

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Well, whatever it is, it's impossible to deny that Green can't finish well, if you prefer that term (euphemism, in my book). I personally think his mental game does not match his physical ability or technique. Even with Logan Stieber around, Green is the one guy who makes me rewind the most because he is so explosive and crisp, but 100% of the rewinds happen before the third period. Very tough to win a national championship with that tendency.

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I truly don't think it is lack of effort.  I think he really gasses out.  Tougher matches definitely drain him more and if he doesn't get the early lead he doesn't seem to have the energy late to get it done.  Some guys just don't have the Metcalf gas tank.  Anyone who has wrestled has to remember how much harder it is to escape, against a very good opponent, late in the 3rd than it is at the start of the 2nd.  Add in wrestling a top notch DI opponent while being dead tired.  We get spoiled watching DI talent and expect all wrestlers to have the will power like Dake to still wrestle great when exhausted.  You have to realize Dake is an exception to the rule and definitely not the norm.

The guy is so fast twitch its probably all put impossible for him to go out and put out a Mark Ironside esc performance. Thats not what I am asking of him....but if I am gonna criticize the guy I should point that out. 

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In case you had not noticed I expected Green to win the match, so I was in agreement with you before the match. I Mar rode Green like it was too easy. Green barely even got to his knees in that third period, and to me that shows a lack of what you were calling "toughness". I can therefore admit that I Mar out toughed him last night. No big deal. It is what it is. 

I'm going to disagree and say it is a bug deal.   If Green is getting out toughed by a frosh, he isn't going to be getting his NCAA title (granted IMar appears to be a super frosh but by his senior season, Green needs to have seen enough toughness to be at a higher level than Martinez.   

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I am sorry, that match didn't convince me "toughness" was a factor.  Still, my argument has never been that Green can't be "out toughed".  I just vehemently disagree that a High Schooler is tough while a 3x AA is not.  Now if you were comparing them to wrestlers at their respective levels I would digress.  But directly comparing Valencia's and Green's toughness to each other is rather laughable to me.

 

Also, I am not sure last night's match is the perfect measuring stick to knock on Green.  He has consistently looked gassed and had letdowns mid season.  Last year he lost to Michigan's backup.  If Martinez can do it in March, I will jump on the bandwagon.

 

Well Valencia pinned a couple wins at junior worlds and was dominating when he got caught and pinned himself.   Iirc, he was wrecking the field, got caught and was eliminated.   And Valencia crushed Imar twice (granted in freeestyle) after their initial nail biter first match.   The most we can take from Valencia blowout improvement would be toughness.   So if he's tough, tough, tougher then Imar (at least in freestyle) we can at least extrapolate they're at or near the same level as Martinez at any style.   It's wrestling.   

 

And with Martinez out toughing Green, (the opinion of several) it stands to reason a high schooler could indeed out tough a 3 time All American known for his lack of toughness.   

 

It isn't like there's a set rule a high schooler could never be tougher than a 3 time AA.  If so you'd be laughing at Cary Kolat, for one and the list goes on and on with Names Like Mocco for example.  You'd probably really be laughing at him, he actually lost a HS match as a frosh.   

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Gantry, on 24 Jan 2015 - 1:45 PM, said:

Seen IMart plenty, he tough.  But did you see his match against Welch?   Ridden A TON in that match

 

Perhaps Welch is just as tough or tougher on top, didn't see that match - don't think they've wrestled this year(haven't found any results) but should on Feb 1 and think we will find out then.  The thing about Martinez is that he seems to be very good & tough in all 3 positions and has improved a lot during the year, but perhaps will have a better idea on Feb 1.

 

I'm still confused, how long did Welch spend on top, how tough is he in the top position, or any compared to Martinez?  Although if Welch got 1/2 a point for every time he backed up he might've teched Martinez.

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