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rstrong

Replace NCAA folkstyle with freestyle - Is it time?

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There is no reason all of the collegiate divisions need to be folkstyle - DI, DII, DIII, NAIA, etc.   Why not have a freestyle option?  Give HS athletes the option to go the FS route and study full time.  Such a program could also add a women's program to nullify any Title 9 ramifications. 

 

And heck yes to the pushout rule at all levels.  By this time in the season I am completely fed up with whistle restarts  - over and over again.  Refs just refuse to penalize guys for playing the edge and taking the action out of bounds.  It is part of the game and it shouldn't be.  Time to take the discretion out of their hands and make it a firm rule. 

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Amen Cradle.

 

I want to love folk style. I really do. The wrestlers are amazing and they are the future stars of freestyle and mma (both of which I love).

 

I honestly can't watch any more 3-2 matches that have maybe one takedown, several minutes of riding with no turn and 10+ out of bounds.

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Our current member ID/info goes (shows) back to 2010. Although, this forum was active for some years prior to that. Themat,however, 'carried' all of those members of 2010 (and their posts) forward to this newer format . 

 

That said, I recall this topic being bandied about pretty thoroughly throughout all of these years.

 

No easy answer. College wrestling has come a long long way in recent decades. HS and college attendance has soared to new heights. The casual fan catches on to folkstyle easily. For the most part…that is. Those same (casual) fans may not catch freestyle so easily (that is, if we should ever 'marry' some freestyle with our folkstyle wrestling).

 

I love international wrestling. Freesyle and Greco. I wrestled both while in the army & for a while after. The officiating for both FS and GR events (especially overseas) can, at times, drive me nuts.

 

We are developing potential Olympic/Worlds medal winners. Likely more and better than ever. 

 

My vote is to leave folkstyle alone. It's not broken.

Edited by denny

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Why would Greco be in worse condition than it is now? Isn't Greco more similar to Freestyle than Folk? There would still be a scholastic season and a more expansive summer season, right?

 

I like folkstyle, and would hate to see it go.  If we'd lose anything, I think we'd see it more in the decline of wrestlers dominating MMA. Situational mat wrestling, and control of those positions is emphasized in Folk. What's rewarded in Freestyle and Greco from those positions would usually be silly for MMA.

 

What we would gain in international focus might be lost in the entertainment fighting focus. Seems like a toss-up to me. I would guess that there's more money in MMA, albeit a tiny amount compared to careers that don't require you to get kicked in the head. I don't know how much the non-title fighters make, but I'd guess it's more than the guys who don't quite make the national team, and maybe more than the guys who don't win world medals. 

 

I don't think it would change our national wrestling community, which is what matters most for 999/1000 kids involved in the sport. We would still value discipline and work ethic - the stuff that helps everyone succeed after the competitive years. 

 

Outside of the gut wrenches and lifts, I'd say that Free and Folk are much closer to one another than Free and Greco.

 

If the goal moves from being a state champ in one style (Folk) and a national champ in another (Free) to being the state and national champion in just Freestyle (state finals results could be used as Fargo qualifiers), then when do those kids make the move to Greco if it's essentially a seamless progression from November through July? My best guess would be that you would see more Greco technique being taught to compliment Free without splitting the two into different disciplines.

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I prefer FS to folk, but i get that it's not everyone's preference. 

 

however, is there any excuse left anymore why college folk shouldn't use a pushout?

I agree and i like that the pushout rule increases action by forcing wrestlers to stay in bounds,although I f'ing hate it when a match outcome is decided on a pushout. Especially in the 1-0, 1-1 type matches.

 

Talking out of both sides of my mouth here.

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Don't wrestle on the edge and you won't get pushed out. Circle in and stay in the center. Most World class guys do that all the time.

 

As one example, the Ruth match against Iran at 2014 World's - that wasn't the rule's fault at all, IMO.

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I HATE THIS TOPIC MORE THAN ANYTHING.

 

FREESTYLE IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR AVERAGE SPORTS FAN TO UNDERSTAND!

 

Realize the mere concept of every sport you have an offense and defense. Folkstyle has that with two wrestlers fighting for a takedown then one wrestler scores. then they are on top and bottom fighting for a pin, or battling too escape.

 

In freestyle you have two wrestlers fighting for a takedown i think. For people who complain about 3-2 matches in folk... I have seen way more matches in freestyle end in 1-1, or go to a terrible ball grab.

 

But back to my point in freestyle if someone scores a takedown, the top wrestler just tries to roll around the mat for 15 seconds to try and expose the other wrestlers back, not work for a pin. The bottom wrestler gets rewarded for laying flat on his stomach and stalling.

 

If anything the US should switch to the metric system, but the rest of the world should abolish freestyle.

 

Imagine trying to promote dake vs taylor, their finals match was great because of their mat game and their ability to scramble and create exciting moments in matches. how bad was dake howe when they stood on their feet for 16 minutes just smashing there heads against each other.

 

I hate this topic more than anything and if you think freestyle is better folkstyle you need a SERIOUS smack on the head.

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I HATE THIS TOPIC MORE THAN ANYTHING.

 

FREESTYLE IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR AVERAGE SPORTS FAN TO UNDERSTAND!

 

Realize the mere concept of every sport you have an offense and defense. Folkstyle has that with two wrestlers fighting for a takedown then one wrestler scores. then they are on top and bottom fighting for a pin, or battling too escape.

 

In freestyle you have two wrestlers fighting for a takedown i think. For people who complain about 3-2 matches in folk... I have seen way more matches in freestyle end in 1-1, or go to a terrible ball grab.

 

But back to my point in freestyle if someone scores a takedown, the top wrestler just tries to roll around the mat for 15 seconds to try and expose the other wrestlers back, not work for a pin. The bottom wrestler gets rewarded for laying flat on his stomach and stalling.

 

If anything the US should switch to the metric system, but the rest of the world should abolish freestyle.

 

Imagine trying to promote dake vs taylor, their finals match was great because of their mat game and their ability to scramble and create exciting moments in matches. how bad was dake howe when they stood on their feet for 16 minutes just smashing there heads against each other.

 

I hate this topic more than anything and if you think freestyle is better folkstyle you need a SERIOUS smack on the head.

 

Your histrionics would be more convincing if you weren't talking about freestyle rules like the ball grab that haven't actually been used for more than a year. The current version of freestyle, while in my opinion not better than folkstyle, is vastly improved from its early-2000s mutation.

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What even brought us to this topic, is the way too many folkstyle wrestlers that avoid wrestling, and go out of bounds, out of bounds, out of bounds....... and worst of all, without penalty. It's an epidemic in the NCAA. Not only is it painfully boring to watch, but it wastes valuable TV time (when aired), and above all, it violates the spirit of the rules.

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Td; exactly.

 

I don't like UWWs mandatory stall calls and hyper aggressive refereeing, per say. Seems like that is what's needed though (along with pushouts). Folk style wrestling is great fun. Watching two guys stand there like pylons is not.

 

Lurshy, to each their own. There is no right or wrong when it comes to favorite styles. However it's clear you aren't very well informed on freestyle wrestling.

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Imagine trying to promote dake vs taylor, their finals match was great because of their mat game and their ability to scramble and create exciting moments in matches. how bad was dake howe when they stood on their feet for 16 minutes just smashing there heads against each other.

 

dake v howe was not the best match but the team trials battles between Burroughs and Dake and then Burroughs and Taylor were some of the bet matches i can remember. really awesome matches. 

 

and i also agree that freestyle de-emphasizes pins, which is not great. but the super emphasize throws, which is great.

 

so there's compromises everywhere. and its not like i dislike folk. its the only style i ever wrestled and its still the style i know best. im just convinced there is room for improvement and see no reason why the american folkstyle wrestling community should be looking to improve. ditching folk 100% is never going to happen overnight but there there is plenty of low hanging fruit to start with. 

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One of the benefits of having so many rule changes in freestyle so frequently courtesy of the inept FILA/UWW organization is that American folkstyle gets a free look at how a variety of potential rules adjustments would fare with spectators.

 

Ball grab: NO

Almost TDs: NO

Pushouts: YES

 

There would be practically no risk of implementing the tried and true pushout to folkstyle and a ton to gain.

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One glaring problem with aligning the NCAA rules with freestyle is that I'm not even sure what that means.  Obviously the NCAA would/could never align verbatim with an external document...so which rules do you borrow and which rules don't you borrow?  Alignment to me means making many large changes in the rules in a short period of time.  I don't like that approach. 

 

I actually think the NCAA rules committee has done a decent job in the past few years. They've tried to make a small number of modifications each year.  The changes that yield positive results stay and the ones that don't are left behind.  That is a more scientific approach.  

 

Right now, my two problems with the rules committee are: (1) there hasn't been much effort to reduce rule complexity (2) there is no transparency for the fans.

 

My wish list for rule changes:

- push out = 1 pt

- simplify and broaden stalling criteria every year until we get it right

- eliminate escape point, change takedown/reversal to 1 pt, use only 1 set of nearfall criteria (3 sec = 1 pt)

 

I'm not sure what should be done with the top/bottom position.  I believe this position is a very important (maybe the most important) component of wrestling to demonstrate control, but at the D1 level it is not fan friendly.  Maybe each guy only gets to ride in top position for cumulative 120 sec before automatic standups?

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My biggest wish for a rule change (beyond pushouts) is to remove the "control before back points" criteria. Drives me crazy when a guy is lying on his back, almost pinned but not giving up points because they're hanging onto an ankle or whatever.

 

Changing this might even decrease stalling. This rule as it stands makes it pretty easy, comparatively, to defend takedowns. Making a td easier to score and harder to defend might encourage more attacks.

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The national championships are not sell outs and we all know that.  Tickets are always easy to obtain and the upper bowls are maybe 80% occupied.  Also for the most part it's the same people attending all sessions.

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