Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
oldrules

Rick's rant

Recommended Posts

False. Our sport is dying on the d1 level. The fact that one event is well attended doesn't change that. the regular season means nothing. Everybody admits that. If we all admit that it means nothing, why would anyone bother attending? And its not even the tournament format drawing people in. The other big yearly tournaments aren't exactly drawing huge numbers either. But hey, let's just keep rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sport isnt dying at DI, it is dead. At NAIA it is thriving. Calling the Duals the NCAA Championship is just another form of rearranging those same deck chairs. It isn't going to add more programs and it will still have teams not participate. Go find a new solution to the DI wrestling problem. Calling the Duals the NCAA team champion won't change a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Calling the Duals the NCAA team champion won't change a thing.

 

That's BS and you know it. If the team champions were being determined this weekend, do you really think every single top team in the country would not participate in the event and have as strong a lineup as possible?

 

If nothing else, it would improve the sport for the current fans by providing another weekend of top competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I don't care if the Duals are called the team title. It won't ever happen no matter how loudly Rob Koll or the NWCA calls for it. The sport needs to look elsewhere to expand. Start more clubs, expand at NAIA and bring back UNO (trev alberts is a douche). DI is not going to bring programs anywhere close to the number of programs of yesteryear.

Edited by oldrules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's state tournament weekend, you are taking asses away from seats not putting more in. And honestly no, I don't see every team wanting to join if you call it the team title. Individual achievement is far more important.

 

It may be far more important to you, but you are not a D1 coach at a top program. I can't think of a single coach who thinks team performance isn't his #1 priority, and I've talked to a lot of them. 

 

I don't want to start another massive thread on the merits of a dual format versus its cons, but I simply wanted to point out that your comment "won't change a thing" is just wrong. Dangling a national title carrot will absolutely change things. Whether it will grow the sport appreciably or not is certainly up for debate, but like I said, at a minimum, it would make for a more interesting event for current fans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's state tournament weekend, you are taking asses away from seats not putting more in. And honestly no, I don't see every team wanting to join if you call it the team title. Individual achievement is far more important.

 

I go to a lot of college duals here in PA and since the end of team portion of elementary and junior high wrestling, I have been seeing a lot more youth wrestlers with their families in attendence.  PA states is still 2 weeks away.

 

Single semester sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

False. Our sport is dying on the d1 level. The fact that one event is well attended doesn't change that. the regular season means nothing. Everybody admits that. If we all admit that it means nothing, why would anyone bother attending? And its not even the tournament format drawing people in. The other big yearly tournaments aren't exactly drawing huge numbers either. But hey, let's just keep rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

1. The Regular season will not mean any more to the vast major of teams under a dual championship format since (a) they won't be invited and (b) those that do will be early round fodder as they have no chance to win. Furthermore, those big name teams that will be in contention already have maximum interest in their program and attendance will not increase. Ex. Penn State, they have sold out every event including a 16k venue; Iowa has wrestled in front of 100k this year.   

 

2. There will be an inherent conflict of interest between the team championship and aspirations of the individual wrestler. Right now the coach and wrestler can work together to peak in March. Under a dual championship format, coaches will be put in the awkward position of deciding whether to put a wrestler on the mat when it is not in their best interest, especially when it's this late in the season.  

 

3. The usual suspects will still be winning the championships and there will be multiple rematches of recent duals, especially in the BigTen. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If by some chance Penn State is able to squeak out some upsets at the big show and claim its fifth straight national title are they truly the best team for the 2014-15 NCAA season? Keep in mind Penn State has now lost duals to Iowa, Ohio State, Minnesota and Oklahoma State."

 

Upsets are more likely in a dual setting where matchups play a more prominent role. Therefore there is more of a risk the better team will not win in a dual setting, not less. 

 

 

"If you disagree with this idea and think every team has the opportunity to win an NCAA title you a filled with folly. With the current selection process for the NCAA Tournament big schools receive the brunt of the entries while small schools might get one or two wrestlers in the big show."

 

What's filled with folly is thinking you can eliminate the majority of teams from even competing in the team race and hold the higher ground in the argument. At least those teams with 2 wrestlers are participating in the team race. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's filled with folly is thinking you can eliminate the majority of teams from even competing in the team race

 

But this comment illustrates what so many people fail to understand - if you have a true dual championship you are not eliminating ANY team from the team race - the race will become the entire dual season, and every dual will matter.

 

As it stands now, the season is just two weekends in March - everything else leading up is just pre-season, you don't even need to compete (i.e., see Jesse Delgado).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't care where they hand out the medals to fix the real problem in College Wrestling one first has to address it.

You could have 180 programs and someone still has to finish 180.  Competitive Balance will never be there when it comes to the top prizes.

 

The biggest issue is a complete lack of depth in quality College Coaching and D1 program development.  The haves will always be able to fund their programs and draw enough fans to bring a quality and watchable product to the mat.  PSU is marginal this year compared to the past 4-5 but regardless Happy Valley shows up to every event to drink the kool aid and cheer on the boys.  Cael has built it, and they will come.

 

Until the teams ranked 15-whatever decide to put in a full effort toward the entire program things will never change.  Build local and achieve National.  Start with networking your own college town and area to build your fan-base.  Make people want to support you.  Camps, clinics, local support, ticket deals, match promotions, social media outlets, and team updates all make small wrestling communities want to support college wrestling.

 

You can't build interest by just being an in room coach and recruiting unless you can sign the the best of the best.  Too many small D1 program coaches just flat out can't get a handle on this.  Then, why would a top recruit want to go to a school and build a small program when it is like wrestling for a small HS??  You can't beat the big boys by continuing to do what hasn't worked ever.

 

On top of all that, you had better be able to develop all of your athletes.  You can't just ride your top recruits.  People can make fun of Iowa's "technical" coaching all they want but it is impossible to deny the quality of all the guys in their program when the back ups can step in and knock off ranked guys.  That is why Tommy is reel smart.

 

Or, we can keep talking about pushout rules or dual meet titles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, even if the NCAA said they would institute a legitimate DUAL MEET Champion,

you'd be against it??

I wonder what would constitute a "legitimate dual meet champion."  A 64-team bracket wrestled over a month of weekends?  The NWCA has messed around with at least three different formats over the past few years.  Up to now, none have worked--if we consider fan numbers to be the criterion for success.  This year the fans will show up, but we all know thats' because it's in Iowa City and the Hawkeyes are really good.  Take it elsewhere and see if 4,000 show up.

And all of this has been about "saving (D1) wrestling" and "growing the sport". two notions which may be mutually exclusive.  Those who push this need to get used to and accept two facts:

 1) the fan base cannot grow exponentially--some will occasionally attend a well-publicized and attractive event like that this weekend, and many others couldn't be bothered.  (I am in IC as I write this and can speak from immediate experience.)  

2) In the current situation the problem of maintaining and initiating D1 programs is attributable to institutional indifference and budget problems facing especially public insitutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's filled with folly is thinking you can eliminate the majority of teams from even competing in the team race and hold the higher ground in the argument. At least those teams with 2 wrestlers are participating in the team race. 

it doesnt matter how the championship is determined, parity won't change. teams with 2 wrestlers in the ncaa tournament do not care about the team race they care about those 2 wrestlers. that wont change if the team crown is determined by duals.

 

the argument for changing the way the team champion is crowned has nothing to do with parity. its about creating more marketable events to increase the profile and popularity of the sport. i understand people really like the current system and dont want to see anything change but the sport is getting thrashed and doing nothing is not an acceptable option in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

D1 dual attendance is improving.  Rutgers, Ohio State, PSU and Iowa have drawn several crowds in excess of 5000 this season.

 

First big problem in D1 wrestling is to make it more watchable:

 

1) Riding bores everyone.  No improvement on top or bottom?  Put them back on their feet.

2) Eliminate stalling but use a passivity call.  One wrestler keeps the pressure on?  He gets rewarded by getting choice of positions after the second passivity call and each one after.  At least wrestlers will earn their points--not get them handed over by the official.

3) Two x 3 minute periods which start in neutral.

4) TD's with back exposure get 3 points--not two.

5) Any back exposure from top position earns at least one point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I don't care if the Duals are called the team title. It won't ever happen no matter how loudly Rob Koll or the NCWA calls for it. The sport needs to look elsewhere to expand. Start more clubs, expand at NAIA and bring back UNO (trent dilfer is a douche).

It's NWCA and its Trev Alberts, not Trent Dilfer. Big difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If by some chance Penn State is able to squeak out some upsets at the big show and claim its fifth straight national title are they truly the best team for the 2014-15 NCAA season? Keep in mind Penn State has now lost duals to Iowa, Ohio State, Minnesota and Oklahoma State."

 

Upsets are more likely in a dual setting where matchups play a more prominent role. Therefore there is more of a risk the better team will not win in a dual setting, not less. 

Only with college wrestling would the fact that upsets could happen be shown as a problem. Do you hear anybody complain during March madness one of these "Cinderella teams" goes on a run? Or the best team doesn't win the title? Did anybody feed Ohio State was the best college football team this year? We're the New York Giants football team last two times they won the Super Bowl? Does the best golfer win every tournament? Variance and upsets are a GOOD thing in sports.

 

 

"If you disagree with this idea and think every team has the opportunity to win an NCAA title you a filled with folly. With the current selection process for the NCAA Tournament big schools receive the brunt of the entries while small schools might get one or two wrestlers in the big show."

 

What's filled with folly is thinking you can eliminate the majority of teams from even competing in the team race and hold the higher ground in the argument. At least those teams with 2 wrestlers are participating in the team race.

 

That's the point. Teams are already eliminated from the team race on Day 1 of the season now. But if the regular season determined which teams got to compete for the team title, that might change. Sure, maybe nothing changes...but we don't know. We do know for certain that nothing is changing in the current format....it's getting worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of your stance regarding how the NCAA Team Champ is crowned, you can't argue that it isn't important to the sport to increase interest in Dual Meets.  Dual meets are our 1 and ONLY way to increase viewership and, even more importantly, garner more casual fans.  To make this happen, you HAVE TO make Duals RELEVANT.  

 

Everyone who supports the current system points to how great that ONE tournament is(It is great).  They neglect to realize that ONE tournament makes team performance for rest of the season nearly irrelevant.  How do you market wrestling when marquee match ups don't happen because it isn't worth the risk and many coaches even forfeit weights because, again, it really doesn't matter.  OkState, Penn State and even Iowa have recently not attended National Duals for this exact reason.

 

SOMETHING has to be done to make the regular season, especially Duals relevant.  Status Quo, no matter how great the ONE tournament is, will eventually kill this sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

assuming an 80 field team, and a 24 team playoff, roughly 20 will not have a competitive season, 20 teams will be trying to make the playoffs, 20 teams will be trying to win the first round, 10 teams will be trying to make a deep run in the playoffs, and 10 will be trying to win it all. everyone will have a season of team duals that matter and the sport gets multiple weeks of championship round. 

 

currently we have no team season and only 10 teams going into the post season with even a glimmer of championship hopes. 

 

keep crowning individual champions the same way, but change the way the team trophy is awarded. the team with 2 guys in the individual tournament can still follow them and the team with no individual qualifiers but a well rounded dual team can also hope for a post season. its the best of both worlds and then we can all enjoy the sport and have a post season party like pals. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...