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Flagrant Misconduct

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Agree. Waters chipping that guy was warranted after yesterdaay's Iowa antics. 

What happened yesterday is means nothing. That is like saying if Mizzou committed an unsportsmanlike yesterday then it was ok for Gilman to do one today.

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It can. Can you show me an incident where the other wrestler wasn't injured that it resulted in a DQ? It is ALWAYS called the way it was called today. Always.

 

You are wrong. It is often called a DQ because it is flagrant misconduct, absolutely unacceptable and bush league. Injury or no injury, the move is the same and can result in DQ. It's like punching a guy in the face. If the guy doesn't go down, it's not flagrant misconduct? I have seen the exact same situation called a DQ at least half a dozen times in person. 

 

How is what Gilmand did any different than this, which happened in 2012 at the Reno TOC. http://www.flowrestling.org/video/673111-Gutches-Slam#.VOo_ZVXF-UM.

 

Brock Gutches slammed a kid from U. Ohio in the finals in the exact same situation, from bottom when the other guy was riding legs. 

 

Now see the brackets here: http://rtoc.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2012-RTOC-College-Brackets10.pdf

 

DQ.

 

What Gilman did was no different, except Waters was aware enough to avoid getting his head slammed. I'm all for a little rough play, but refs' #1 job is to protect the athletes' safety and the move Gilman did is extremely dangerous because it can lead to a guy landing with two people's weight on his head. It's a really cowardly move.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Then should have Waters been ejected for flagrant misconduct for deliberately running into the Iowa wrestler after the match? Running into someone is striking them after all.

 

5.6 Flagrant Misconduct 5.6.1 Prematch, Match or Postmatch Period. During the prematch, match or postmatch period, flagrant misconduct committed by either wrestler, such as intentionally striking an opponent

WOW! Are you serious?  So the Iowa thug BLOCKS Waters and you are blaming Waters for running in to him? This is hilarious. Iowa did the same thing yesterday to Palacio. The Iowa wrestler INITIATED the whole incident! So Waters is to politely ask the Iowa punk to please move? Whatever. 

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You are wrong. It is often called a DQ because it is flagrant misconduct, absolutely unacceptable and bush league. Injury or no injury, the move is the same and can result in DQ. It's like punching a guy in the face. If the guy doesn't go down, it's not flagrant misconduct? I have seen the exact same situation called a DQ at least half a dozen times in person. 

 

How is what Gilmand did any different than this, which happened in 2012 at the Reno TOC. http://www.flowrestling.org/video/673111-Gutches-Slam#.VOo_ZVXF-UM.

 

Brock Gutches slammed a kid from U. Ohio in the finals in the exact same situation, from bottom when the other guy was riding legs. 

 

Now see the brackets here: http://rtoc.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2012-RTOC-College-Brackets10.pdf

 

DQ.

 

What Gilman did was no different, except Waters was aware enough to avoid getting his head slammed. I'm all for a little rough play, but refs' #1 job is to protect the athletes' safety and the move Gilman did is extremely dangerous because it can lead to a guy landing with two people's weight on his head. It's a really cowardly move.

Do you really not see the difference? Come on.

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If the whole situation was reversed and Waters slammed Gilman, the Iowa fans would be singing a whole different tune and wanting a DQ. BUT because Gilman did it, it was acceptable and no big deal. This is what is so sad, there is no rational when it comes to Iowa fans. 

 

Looking over at their forum is pure comedy right now. The excuses are hilarious. 

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There is no difference in the move they hit. The difference is the outcome. So one guy landed on his head, the other avoided it. That doesn't make the move any less flagrant. If I swing at you and you duck and I miss, is my punch not flagrant? 

 

Should've been DQ without a further thought.

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You are wrong. It is often called a DQ because it is flagrant misconduct, absolutely unacceptable and bush league. Injury or no injury, the move is the same and can result in DQ. It's like punching a guy in the face. If the guy doesn't go down, it's not flagrant misconduct? I have seen the exact same situation called a DQ at least half a dozen times in person. 

 

How is what Gilmand did any different than this, which happened in 2012 at the Reno TOC. http://www.flowrestling.org/video/673111-Gutches-Slam#.VOo_ZVXF-UM.

 

Brock Gutches slammed a kid from U. Ohio in the finals in the exact same situation, from bottom when the other guy was riding legs. 

 

Now see the brackets here: http://rtoc.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2012-RTOC-College-Brackets10.pdf

 

DQ.

 

What Gilman did was no different, except Waters was aware enough to avoid getting his head slammed. I'm all for a little rough play, but refs' #1 job is to protect the athletes' safety and the move Gilman did is extremely dangerous because it can lead to a guy landing with two people's weight on his head. It's a really cowardly move.

 

 

 

Great work, wrestling nerd. Game, set, match. What Gilman did deserved a DQ, but its Iowa so all is cool with the refs. Shocking!

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See Vak's logic from before .... to him, the rule should be interpreted as to whether the person was injured.  His logic is clearly stated.  If wrestler can continue, no DQ.  His duty of care is not at the same level of mine.

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See Vak's logic from before .... to him, the rule should be interpreted as to whether the person was injured.  His logic is clearly stated.  If wrestler can continue, no DQ.  His duty of care is not at the same level of mine.

 

I don't really care what anyone says. I care about what the rulebook says. The rulebook clearly states that a move executed with intent to injure (it even leaves room for referee discretion with the language "or any act serious enough....") leads to DQ. The rulebook does not say that a move executed with intent to injure leads to a DQ if and only if the opponent leaves the mat on a stretcher.... 

 

The outcome of the move is immaterial. It is the move itself that should result in DQ.

 

Again, I'm all for a little rough play. Wrestling is not bowling. But because wrestling is a tough sport, these types of illegal moves that can seriously injure the head have to have stiff penalties.

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Until the most recent rulebook came out, an injury that resulted from an illegal hold and the injuree(?) not being able to continue after the 2 minute recovery time was a default. The most recent book (coming in before last season) rewrote to be a dq.

When people scanning brackets see DQs in these situations, it was generally from a misunderstanding of the scorers at the events. For years I had to correct these as almost everyone including referees and rules committee members or state rules interpreters just assumed they were dqs. They were defaults.

In the current HS and the older college rules, the officials had the discretion to call flagrants under the right scenarios. I normally had to go to the officials to ask if that's what they meant. I don't think I ever had one say, oh yes it's flagrant.

This means the 2012 slam referenced was likely not a dq but would have been under current rules. However, that doesn't mean it would be a flagrant. It would be a dq at same level as being stalled out.

Edited by gimpeltf

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The official could have called it but didn't. Not every call you don't like is a bad call. If you don't like it, stand up and shake the sand out and sign up to become an official yourself.

So where should we stand up, shake the sand out, and sign up to be wrestling fans?

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Sometimes in college sports athletes get punished afterward by their respective league upon review of game tapes.  Any chance in Hades it happens here? 

The NCAA has done this themselves for incidents that occur in competitions. From simple censures to suspensions.

Edited by LkwdSteve

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Not from Brands - he probably applauded the move.  You can bet he will rationalize it.  He should be drummed out of the business.

 

Where is the Iowa AD?  The NCAA oversight?   I've got some free time.  I'll send them both a letter tomorrow.  Gilman needs to be sat down.  Brands needs to be reprimanded and fined substantially.  

 

I am all for being rough and tumble.  This isn't badminton.  This BS has to stop.    If Waters gets permanently injured schools will drop wrestling like a bad habit. The Brands' have no honor. 

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There is no difference in the move they hit. The difference is the outcome. So one guy landed on his head, the other avoided it. That doesn't make the move any less flagrant. If I swing at you and you duck and I miss, is my punch not flagrant? 

 

Should've been DQ without a further thought.

So you think if Gutches opponent had been fine, and not, you know, unconscious, the match would have been terminated? I simply disagree.

 

As to your example we've seen countless examples of wrestlers taking swings without being DQ'd as long as contact isn't made. I remember a MSU wrestler throwing fists at Derek St. John without being disqualified.

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Not from Brands - he probably applauded the move.  You can bet he will rationalize it.  He should be drummed out of the business.

 

Where is the Iowa AD?  The NCAA oversight?   I've got some free time.  I'll send them both a letter tomorrow.  Gilman needs to be sat down.  Brands needs to be reprimanded and fined substantially.  

 

I am all for being rough and tumble.  This isn't badminton.  This BS has to stop.    If Waters gets permanently injured schools will drop wrestling like a bad habit. The Brands' have no honor. 

 

 

 

No joke, I thought the same thing. Look at Terry's antics all weekend jumping up and down on the mat like a nut. He is not doing the sport any favors with this crap. Then look at the guys \blocking opposing wrestlers from heading to their lockers. Then what Gilman did today. 

 

This is part of a years long pattern at Iowa. 

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So you think if Gutches opponent had been fine, and not, you know, unconscious, the match would have been terminated? I simply disagree.

 

As to your example we've seen countless examples of wrestlers taking swings without being DQ'd as long as contact isn't made. I remember a MSU wrestler throwing fists at Derek St. John without being disqualified.

 

Like I said, it's not what I think. It's what the rulebook says. What is flagrant is not the injury, but the intent.

 

You really think Gilman was just trying to shimmy Waters off his back? He arched back so hard into Waters' head that his feet were several feet off the ground as they landed!

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I have to agree with poster nom. The first responsibility of the ref is the wrestler's safety. Just as a ref has to be in position for calling a fall, he needs also, and more importantly, to be in a position to prevent injury. This should be a lesson to every official that during a stand up -- and the top man having his legs in--- the ref should stop the action and/or quickly position himself behind both wrestlers to "catch" or provide resistance to prevent a slam, or injury, or loss of point, or loss of bout, or loss of NCAA eligibility.

 

This is a situation that develops slowly; you can it see coming and there's plenty of time to react.

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