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madcat11

Should Gilman be punished further?

Should Gilman get additional punishment?  

97 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Gilman get additional punishment?

    • Yes
      57
    • No
      40


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Lets not forget that what Gilman did is perfectly legal in freestyle, and is commonly taught as a way to get a defensive touch fall.  You see guys do it to each other all the time in the practice room, particularly where they do a lot of freestyle. 

 

I'm not excusing what Gilman did after the whistle (and certainly not excusing the ref's comically bad call), but people vilifying Gilman, saying how dangerous and risky Gilman's action and how Waters could've gotten seriously hurt, are essentially saying freestyle is overly dangerous and risky.  Relax.  Its an illegal move in folk and he should've gotten dinged for it, but that's it.

And as Rakkasan has pointed out, the illegal slam followed immediately by the tackle well after the whistle should have resulted in Gilman being sent to the showers, but that's it.

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I have watched this several times but this time I watched the smack on the head by the ref?   What was that all about?  Probably the hardest hit of the match?

I'm thinking it was a reflex thing after he felt himself being hit across the back. Bizarre that he reached out and did that.

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There should be no further penalties assessed as it was settled on the mat.

These 2 have history and I dug up a match they had pre high school:

 

 

In the spirit of Hot Tub Time Machine 2 I was able to bring back video of an encounter they'll have later:

 

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Not sure how you can punish Gilman. The only authority that could do so would be the Univ of Iowa (it was not a B1G event) - and I don't see that happening.

 

However, I do think the ref should be reprimanded in some way. Particularly since we are in the era of replay, there is no reason for him to make the error that he did.

Edited by lu_alum

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Those who argue that Gilman can not be reprimanded for the slam because he was not penalized for it need only to look at other collegiate and professional sports.  Offensive actions, be it side line scuffles or cherap shots on the football field, have led to fines and disciplinary suspensions without being call "illegal" during the course of the game/event.

 

Not sure who could levy such decission but I would hope that the act has more ramifications than what has been handed out thus far.

 

The tough guy stuff should be saved for WWF.  

 

I also side with Shane Sparks and what I see is proof is the club to Waters immediately after the slam.  He surely appears to be trying to protect Gilman from any further injury!  Wonder if the ref slept well that night!! 

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Not confused, the ref clearly hit Waters for the slam completely denying logic.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/252077-2015-National-Duals/video/761599-125lbs-Finals-Alan-Waters-Missouri-vs-Thomas-Gilman-Iowa

 

Again, watch Coach Smith's reaction.

I know but I honestly think the ref got confused put up his hands in the wrong order. That might sound like back tracking but I can't get it through my head that the ref could have called that. 

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With how much discussion this is getting across all the forums I wonder if the official should be under review for how poorly he handled things. knowing that he actually called slamming on waters is unbelievable. I don't think the ref was biased so much as he let carver get to him. almost every match was called like he was trying to give the matches away to iowa. if you can't handle carver and make fair calls you shouldn't be allowed to officiate there. on a side note iowa really disappointed across the board. Zero offense (Mayes had as many shots as their entire team combined) outside of their usual bulldozing tactics. The ncaa needs to address this and not reward it with stall calls against their opponents. Pushing doesn't = offense, stop rewarding it.

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With how much discussion this is getting across all the forums I wonder if the official should be under review for how poorly he handled things. knowing that he actually called slamming on waters is unbelievable. I don't think the ref was biased so much as he let carver get to him. almost every match was called like he was trying to give the matches away to iowa. if you can't handle carver and make fair calls you shouldn't be allowed to officiate there. on a side note iowa really disappointed across the board. Zero offense (Mayes had as many shots as their entire team combined) outside of their usual bulldozing tactics. The ncaa needs to address this and not reward it with stall calls against their opponents. Pushing doesn't = offense, stop rewarding it.

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With how much discussion this is getting across all the forums I wonder if the official should be under review for how poorly he handled things. knowing that he actually called slamming on waters is unbelievable. I don't think the ref was biased so much as he let carver get to him. almost every match was called like he was trying to give the matches away to iowa. if you can't handle carver and make fair calls you shouldn't be allowed to officiate there. on a side note iowa really disappointed across the board. Zero offense (Mayes had as many shots as their entire team combined) outside of their usual bulldozing tactics. The ncaa needs to address this and not reward it with stall calls against their opponents. Pushing doesn't = offense, stop rewarding it.

 

If one person is going backwards and, thus, not presenting themselves or attacking (if the Iowa guy is going forward, then they should be very easy to attack), then stalling absolutely should be called.  It's very hard to take someone down who is backing up.

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I actually think pushing without shooting should be viewed as stalling also.   That and they are begging the official for stall call against their opponent!  In paricular I hate to see the pushing act and the HWT matches were one might have 4-5 inches and 30-40 lbs.  The shear size of HWTs such as Adam Koon and Bobby Telford along side of such HWTs should be taken into consideration along with weather or not any shots accompany the "taking of ground". 

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I actually think pushing without shooting should be viewed as stalling also.   That and they are begging the official for stall call against their opponent!  In paricular I hate to see the pushing act and the HWT matches were one might have 4-5 inches and 30-40 lbs.  The shear size of HWTs such as Adam Koon and Bobby Telford along side of such HWTs should be taken into consideration along with weather or not any shots accompany the "taking of ground".

 

This argument only works for hwt.

 

How about you push back?

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If one person is going backwards and, thus, not presenting themselves or attacking (if the Iowa guy is going forward, then they should be very easy to attack), then stalling absolutely should be called.  It's very hard to take someone down who is backing up.

 

If one person is taking all the shots and the risks then NO they shouldn't be called for stalling.

 

Running at someone only looking for stalling points not any offensive moves is not exciting nor should it be rewarded.

 

Since when is this a sumo match?  

 

If we want to add a pushout rule then good I'm all for that but lets not pretend just pushing is a substitution for actually wrestling.

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teach, on 23 Feb 2015 - 2:24 PM, said:snapback.png

I have watched this several times but this time I watched the smack on the head by the ref?   What was that all about?  Probably the hardest hit of the match?

 

I'm thinking it was a reflex thing after he felt himself being hit across the back. Bizarre that he reached out and did that.

 

Funny thing though - it was Gilman's leg that hit Shiels on the back, but he smacked Waters!

 

Another possibility is that Shiels actually thought that Waters had initiated the slam.  Notice that he seemed to be checking to see if Gilman was alright when he reached up and slapped Waters.  

 

Hell, maybe he thought Waters had Gilman in a rear naked choke.  Hard to know what he was thinking, but he did signal the slam against Waters and told Coach Smith and Shane Sparks the call was against Waters. Unreal!

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With how much discussion this is getting across all the forums I wonder if the official should be under review for how poorly he handled things. knowing that he actually called slamming on waters is unbelievable. I don't think the ref was biased so much as he let carver get to him. almost every match was called like he was trying to give the matches away to iowa. if you can't handle carver and make fair calls you shouldn't be allowed to officiate there. on a side note iowa really disappointed across the board. Zero offense (Mayes had as many shots as their entire team combined) outside of their usual bulldozing tactics. The ncaa needs to address this and not reward it with stall calls against their opponents. Pushing doesn't = offense, stop rewarding it.

Mike Allen, in attendance, witnessed the entire debacle from behind the scorer's table.  Based on his expressions, he seemed concerned that Tim Shields was so uncharacteristically befuddled, seemingly confused and, yes, INTIMIDATED.  J. R. was also ineffectual in this instance, but......there have been TOO many MUCH more egregious examples (Zeerip vs Heflin comes to mind) of poor officiating that have gone unpunished to expect any "corrective" actions will be meted out.  (Unlike the slobbering knuckle-draggers who screwed Zeerip, Tim and J.R. are normally top notch.) 

Edited by wreferee

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If one person is taking all the shots and the risks then NO they shouldn't be called for stalling.

 

Running at someone only looking for stalling points not any offensive moves is not exciting nor should it be rewarded.

 

Since when is this a sumo match?  

 

If we want to add a pushout rule then good I'm all for that but lets not pretend just pushing is a substitution for actually wrestling.

 

Good post.  And, as the rules are now, pushing an opponent out of bounds to prevent scoring is supposed to be called as stalling.  However, I don't think I've ever seen that rule enforced.  College wrestling is turning into Sumo in too many instances. JMHO

 

5.9.3 Stalling—Offensive and Defensive Position. Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the center. The offensive and defensive stalling situations include:

5.9.3.1 The offensive wrestler does not aggressively attempt to break down the opponent.
5.9.3.2 Either wrestler pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds to prevent scoring.

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Vak, if iowa even took half shot attempts I could accept a stalling call here and there. But they didn't even do that, they just shoved. As stated above it is their job to also keep the action in the center which they are not doing. as a fan the iowa style has become hard to stomach just because it's so boring (I don't have much against iowa otherwise). Get them back to shooting and they may win out this year. If they wrestle like they have been as of late they're gonna go home without the gold again.

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Vak, if iowa even took half shot attempts I could accept a stalling call here and there. But they didn't even do that, they just shoved. As stated above it is their job to also keep the action in the center which they are not doing. as a fan the iowa style has become hard to stomach just because it's so boring (I don't have much against iowa otherwise). Get them back to shooting and they may win out this year. If they wrestle like they have been as of late they're gonna go home without the gold again.

 

 

Perry, aside from the poor officiating in the 125 match there were 6 addtional Missouri wrestlers warned and/or pointed for stalling. No Hawkeyes were warned for stalling. Not one. 

 

So the team that displayed most of the aggressive wrestling moves on Sunday got all the stall calls against them while the team that pushed and shoved were literally rewarded for it. Seems to me that Shiels was intimidated at CHA. What other possible explanation is there?

Edited by TBar1977

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How about the mat wrestling during this dual?  Did either team have a wrestler get to the side & attempt any type of turn, or even a tilt?  Top man is simply riding parallel for most of every match, just trying to get the riding time advantage.  Both teams were guilty of it, but the ref needs to take charge & warn both teams.  2-1 matches were one guy "rides" another guy for 1:07 seconds is horribly boring to watch.

 

Not sure what the Iowa fans were booing during Cory Clark's match.  He never even attempted to turn his guy, and pretty much stayed parallel during his match.  Missouri did the same thing.  Warn them both and force someone to generate offense. 

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Perry, aside from the poor officiating in the 125 match there were 6 addtional Missouri wrestlers warned and/or pointed for stalling. No Hawkeyes were warned for stalling. Not one. 

 

So the team that displayed most of the aggressive wrestling moves on Sunday got all the stall calls against them while the team that pushed and shoved were literally rewarded for it. Seems to me that Shiels was intimidated at CHA. What other possible explanation is there?

 

Perry, aside from the poor officiating in the 125 match there were 6 addtional Missouri wrestlers warned and/or pointed for stalling. No Hawkeyes were warned for stalling. Not one. 

 

So the team that displayed most of the aggressive wrestling moves on Sunday got all the stall calls against them while the team that pushed and shoved were literally rewarded for it. Seems to me that Shiels was intimidated at CHA. What other possible explanation is there?

 

Every Mizzou wrestler was backing up. Every one. Even Mayes did it, but he was pulling idiot Jeva into his trap. If you think Mizzou was on fire with their shots, you are sadly wrong. Iowa stunk the place up, but Mizzou wasn't much better. Don't back up, don't get called....

Edited by Serial_Thriller

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Every Mizzou wrestler was backing up. Every one. Even Mayes did it, but he was pulling idiot Jeva into his trap. If you think Mizzou was on fire with their shots, you are sadly wrong. Iowa stunk the place up, but Mizzou wasn't much better. Don't back up, don't get called....

 

 

What I saw was that on balance Missouri was more aggressive than Iowa, which bears itself out in the number of take downs. What I did not see was Iowa wrestlers taking even half baked shots. All they did was push, plod, push, plod, push, plod. That is sumo wrestling, not folk style wrestling. 

 

When Clark was riding the Missouri bottom man was stalling according to Shiels who nhit him over and over and over again for stalling while Clark basically did nothing on top. That's fine if that is how you are going to call the whole dual, but it isn't how he called the rest of the dual. Mayes destroyed Jeva. Rode him for nearly 2 and half minutes. Did they call Jeva for stalling? Nope. They did call Mayes for stalling, though, albeit on his feet. They warned him for not making a mat return despite the fact they never started a count. That was a total joke. Mayes did all the work in that match. 

 

Synon got stall pointed.

 

Mayes got stall warned.

 

Houdashelt owned Sorenson, yet Houdashelt got stall pointed. 

 

LaValley got an instant count when he dropped his left hand to Kelly's ankle. OK, so why didn't Gilman get an instant count for doing the same thing? 

 

Miklus is riding Meyer like a mule late in the 3rd. Meyer gets off his knee for 1 second, literally, and Miklus got warned after 1 friggin second. No starting a 5 count. Nothing. WARNING RED! Why? 

 

Then you have the relatively un athletic Burak being awarded a point against the relative way too athletic for him J'Den Cox. How the hell does that happen? He was never going to get Cox down. And don't tell me Cox was stalling, because that is bullcrap. But they have to bail the slow plodding Iowa guy out. The only reason people aren't more upset about all this is that J'Den pounded him 5 seconds later which proves the point that if he had to take Burak down he could have. 

 

Seems to me the criteria for getting warned, penalized or otherwise wrongly officiated (Waters) was that the Missouri wrestler had the gumption to be beating the Iowa wrestler, since all 6 Missou guys who were ahead got warned, penalized, or flat out wrong called.

 

No Iowa wrestler who was leading was similarly penalized. 

Edited by TBar1977

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What I saw was that on balance Missouri was more aggressive than Iowa, which bears itself out in the number of take downs. What I did not see was Iowa wrestlers taking even half baked shots. All they did was push, plod, push, plod, push, plod. That is sumo wrestling, not folk style wrestling. 

 

When Clark was riding the Missouri bottom man was stalling according to Shiels who nhit him over and over and over again for stalling while Clark basically did nothing on top. That's fine if that is how you are going to call the whole dual, but it isn't how he called the rest of the dual. Mayes destroyed Jeva. Rode him for nearly 2 and half minutes. Did they call Jeva for stalling? Nope. They did call Mayes for stalling, though, albeit on his feet. They warned him for not making a mat return despite the fact they never started a count. That was a total joke. Mayes did all the work in that match. 

 

Synon got stall pointed.

 

Mayes got stall warned.

 

Houdashelt owned Sorenson, yet Houdashelt got stall pointed. 

 

LaValley got an instant count when he dropped his left hand to Kelly's ankle. OK, so why didn't Gilman get an instant count for doing the same thing? 

 

Miklus is riding Meyer like a mule late in the 3rd. Meyer gets off his knee for 1 second, literally, and Miklus got warned after 1 friggin second. No starting a 5 count. Nothing. WARNING RED! Why? 

 

Then you have the relatively un athletic Burak being awarded a point against the relative way too athletic for him J'Den Cox. How the hell does that happen? He was never going to get Cox down. And don't tell me Cox was stalling, because that is bullcrap. But they have to bail the slow plodding Iowa guy out. The only reason people aren't more upset about all this is that J'Den pounded him 5 seconds later which proves the point that if he had to take Burak down he could have. 

 

Seems to me the criteria for getting warned, penalized or otherwise wrongly officiated (Waters) was that the Missouri wrestler had the gumption to be beating the Iowa wrestler, since all 6 Missou guys who were ahead got warned, penalized, or flat out wrong called.

 

No Iowa wrestler who was leading was similarly penalized. 

Welcome to Iowa, you act like this is a new thing...

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