LkwdSteve 142 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 We have testimony from SetonHall (on here). We have testimony from Alan Waters (Flo interview). We have testimony Coach Smith (news conference). All said that the illegal slam call was against Waters, and that Gilman was awarded a point as a result. 98% of the posts on the multiple threads regarding this assume the call went against Gilman. So who did the slam? Gilman or Waters? Sorry to start another thread, but this seemed a somewhat significant question to be answered. I wouldn't mind if only direct answers to this question were posted in this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headshuck 2,589 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Thread worthy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronChef 1,078 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Gilman slammed Waters. The official made an impossibly terrible call and penalized Waters. Go watch the Flo highlights. It's pretty clear who the official penalizes. Edited February 23, 2015 by IronChef Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigRedMachine 210 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 ^Not to mention the referee applied an illegal fist to the back on Waters immediately prior to Water's illegal fist to the back on Gilman. 1 rshear111 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTMopar 17 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 The call that should have been made is "Potentially Dangerous" and the action stopped prior to someone kicking their feet thus with potential to cause danger...If that happened and Mr. Gilman continued he wouldn't be wrestling the B1G...Congrats to Mighty Mo they wrestled tough and deserved the win!!! P.S. The PSU "Train"!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_MO_Godfather 52 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) I don't see how it could have been called on Waters. You can literally see Gilman bend over, as if winding up, to throw himself backwards. A 125lbs Waters could not invoke a slam like that while on Gilmans back and feet off the ground. No way would he have the strength to slam that hard. And I'm shocked to hear that Alan or Coach Smith saw it that way. Or are you saying that was their interpretation of the call, not necessarily what they thought happened? Edited February 23, 2015 by The_MO_Godfather Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LkwdSteve 142 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 I don't see how it could have been called on Waters. You can literally see Gilman bend over, as if winding up, to throw himself backwards. A 125lbs Waters could not invoke a slam like that while on Gilmans back and feet off the ground. No way would he have the strength to slam that hard. And I'm shocked to hear that Alan or Coach Smith saw it that way. Or are you saying that was their interpretation of the call, not necessarily what they thought happened? They both expressed surprise that Waters was dinged for an illegal slam. Both disagree with the call (in so many words). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigerfan9311 223 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 I don't see how it could have been called on Waters. You can literally see Gilman bend over, as if winding up, to throw himself backwards. A 125lbs Waters could not invoke a slam like that while on Gilmans back and feet off the ground. No way would he have the strength to slam that hard. And I'm shocked to hear that Alan or Coach Smith saw it that way. Or are you saying that was their interpretation of the call, not necessarily what they thought happened? Correct. Waters and Coach Smith are simply stating the fact that the ref inexplicably called Waters for the slam. No one in their right mind agrees. The ref himself clearly got confused. No way he meant to do that. Inconceivable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_MO_Godfather 52 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 They both expressed surprise that Waters was dinged for an illegal slam. Both disagree with the call (in so many words). Makes sense. I thought I was reading in your post that they (Smith and Waters) said Waters slammed Gilman. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LkwdSteve 142 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 It's funny, such a referee call would normally get a lot a conversation going up front and heavy. The viewing public was left behind on this one. Of course the broadcast team not getting it together didn't help the fans. Shane Sparks reported that the slam was against Waters and a conduct point came against Gilman. Gibbons and Johnson them immediately contradicted Sparks and said, no, the slam was against Gilman and a conduct point against Waters for pushing on the head. If they later got their stories straight I didn't hear it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npope 174 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 The call that should have been made is "Potentially Dangerous" and the action stopped prior to someone kicking their feet thus with potential to cause danger...If that happened and Mr. Gilman continued he wouldn't be wrestling the B1G...Congrats to Mighty Mo they wrestled tough and deserved the win!!! P.S. The PSU "Train"!!! Your point is well made - that is what should have happened. That said, the actual sequence of events of events (and confusion) reveals that there is absolutely no certainty as to what actually would have happened in the way of penalties had things unfolded as they did. Gilman quite possibly could have mugged Waters in the middle of the mat and those refs might have found a way to penalize Waters. As best I can figure from the tape, the refs got confused as to whom they were penalizing for what, e.g., a slam and then an ensuing misconduct point (that's a best case interpretation as to what happened). That said, that little push on the head that Waters gave Gilman when getting up was mild in comparison to what Hawkeye wrestlers routinely do to their opponents when they get up after going out of bounds. Refs should be enforcing that kind of behavior consistently through out the meet for all wrestlers. Their selectivity as to when they will call it leads to allegations of bias. The refs did themselves no favors in this meet and certainly not in the 125 pound match. 1 tigerfan9311 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rakkasan91 75 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 I've watched this match many times and can't come up with any reason why Mizzo would be penalized with a slam. The Iowa wrestler clearly initiated the backwards movement. I can understand Mizzo being penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct for the elbow. My only conclusion is the official messed up the penalties with the wrestlers. It is actually easy to mix up the colors when awarding points or penalizing when both wrestlers are wearing similar colored singlets. This was also the first match of the dual and the green/red associated with black singlets may have not registered with the referee yet. If Shiels did intend to call Waters with a slam, then I have no answers as to why he would have done that. It looked like their were three infractions in that sequence based off the referee's signals: Illegal Hold on someone, unsportsmanlike conduct on someone and control of mat area warning/bench warning against some team. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LkwdSteve 142 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Thanks, Rak. Makes sense. Slight quibble: according to slo mo it was a hand to the face by Waters (rather than an elbow) post-slam. Waters had already been warned for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TBar1977 4,499 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Clearly Gilman deserved to be penalized for the slam. Gibbons and Johnson never once to my recollection actually state that it was Gilman that initiated that slam. They say "you can't do that", but they don't say who they are talking about. And Iowa fans wonder why we think they are homers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LkwdSteve 142 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Clearly Gilman deserved to be penalized for the slam. Gibbons and Johnson never once to my recollection actually state that it was Gilman that initiated that slam. They say "you can't do that", but they don't say who they are talking about. And Iowa fans wonder why we think they are homers. Before that, they said "that's illegal". Again without naming the wrestler. You have to fast forward to the Shane Sparks report, where he said it was a slam against Waters. BOTH Gibbons and Johnson contradicted him and said the slam was against Gilman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TBar1977 4,499 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Before that, they said "that's illegal". Again without naming the wrestler. You have to fast forward to the Shane Sparks report, where he said it was a slam against Waters. BOTH Gibbons and Johnson contradicted him and said the slam was against Gilman. OK. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbert 563 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Its a good thing the head of officiating was at the match Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudge_tunnel 118 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Its a good thing the head of officiating was at the match He looked at clueless as the mat ref.......and the Iowa fans when asked the answer to "2+2" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rakkasan91 75 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Its a good thing the head of officiating was at the match I was thinking the same thing. Sparks could have easily interviewed Allen for clarification like the NFL uses Mike Pereira. It looked like Sparks tried talked to Allen after all that but it wouldn't suprise me if Allen didn't have the correct info either which led to Sparks' reporting that Waters caused the slam. The NFL has had some decent success with former officials on the broadcasting team to explain some things to the public. Wrestling could easily do the same thing. You have guys like Allen, Yagla, Ramirez, Fitzgerald, Frisch and several others that are retired and could easily be incorporated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ArmyFan 16 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Someone needs to find the official and ask him how he called the slam. Watching the replay on Flo, it's apparent to me the official actually called the slam on Waters (as if he initiated the action taking Gilman to the mat). The official's immediate reaction to hit Waters on the back of the neck to break his hold almost suggests the official believed Waters initiated the slam. The official's call after all the commotion was definitely an illegal move by Waters (or whatever the signal hands behind the head he gave) and unsportsmanlike on Gilman. The call had no bearing on the outcome of the match but if that official truly believes Waters slammed Gilman, he need not be officiating at the college level anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SetonHallPirate 988 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 ArmyFan, bad news for you then...you'll see him in St. Louis next month! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SetonHallPirate 988 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Having just watched the sequence again, it's quite clear that the slam should have been called on Gilman, who was either trying to injure Waters or (more likely, given the circumstances) trying to get a defensive fall. Seemed to me that Waters may have put his forearm there in an attempt to get up, afraid he'd lose his balance, and that was when Gilman took his only shot of the entire match. Giving both wrestlers the benefit of the doubt as much as possible, it's quite clear to me that Waters deserved at least one point (and maybe a flagrant misconduct win) for Gilman's extracurriculars. I hadn't seen the forearm issue initially, but I'd probably give Waters the benefit of the doubt on that one. I'd probably have said one point to Waters, and move on there. But calling the illegal slam against Waters, much as it was definitely what Tim Shiels called, defies logic. (Edit to clarify language) Edited February 23, 2015 by SetonHallPirate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GockeS 534 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 pirate you are a good man. but if you think waters was trying to get up by putting his forearm on gilmans head. you are wrong. he was punking gilman the whole match, trying to get him to lose his cool. does water's normally do this type of thing? the slam was definitely all gilman, but he did well to keep his cool that long. waters extra wrestling and head pushing after the whistle were attempts to get gilman to do something. his rep would make it likely that he be called by refs on it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
concerned_texas_coach 0 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 Gilman got called for the slam - Waters got called for unsportsman like conduct. Watch the official place hands like a full nelson (illegal slam) and then place arm straight out indicating unsportsman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SetonHallPirate 988 Report post Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) GockeS, I don't think it was, and I edited my post to show that. Was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Edited February 23, 2015 by SetonHallPirate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
