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LkwdSteve

Who was the slam call on?

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Watching the replay on Flo, it's apparent to me the official actually called the slam on Waters (as if he initiated the action taking Gilman to the mat).  The official's immediate reaction to hit Waters on the back of the neck to break his hold almost suggests the official believed Waters initiated the slam.  

 

This.  I think the ref actually believed Waters slammed him as it looked like he hit Alan pretty hard to stop the action.  I guess they can't review the slam? Smith said he got a warning for disputing the call.  

 

Then the ref gave Gilman a ridiculous reversal at the end.  You can clearly see from the FLO footage that Waters still had the leg in.  Gotta give the Iowa fans credit, they were a major influence on this ref (reversal, stall calls, etc.).

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I just watched the replay of the incident - Waters gave an elbow (which I initially did not see) and I have no problem with the penalty point on him.  However, I've definitely seen worse done with no points awarded (mostly involving Iowa wrestlers).  And the reversal call was bogus.  Oh well, doesn't matter at this point.  

It was funny to see Alan shove the dbag backup whose only role is to block the opponent's path to the locker room.  Out of curiousity, is that an assignment directed by the Iowa coaching staff?

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ctc, you're wrong. Waters was clearly (and wrongly) called for the slam. I can't figure out what he was supposed to do to avoid that situation, but Tim Shiels had the whistle, not me.

 

I see three different signals in that sequence.

First, illegal hold to which he gave a point to green.

Then USC (outstretched left hand palm flat).

Then unnecessary roughness (outstretched right hand with closed fist). However, the book shows the signal for ur as a forward stretch he did it with hand to the side.

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Regarding the sequence, is there any chace Waters reached a 5 count while being drapped over Gilman for a SW?  Not even sure if that would have been his 2nd warning and gave Gilman a point?  Prolly not the case, but the thought crossed my mind.

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Regarding the sequence, is there any chace Waters reached a 5 count while being drapped over Gilman for a SW?  Not even sure if that would have been his 2nd warning and gave Gilman a point?  Prolly not the case, but the thought crossed my mind.

 

 

I don't believe that happened. 

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After watching that sequence again, I believe it's possible that Shields did call an illegal slam on Waters, followed by an unsportsmanlike conduct on Gilman.  Note that, when Gilman tripods up, Shields is down on the mat swiping his arm - apparently initiating a 5-count for stalling/stalemate purposes.  I think he may actually have thought that Waters initiated an illegal slam to return Gilman to the mat before the 5-count was reached.  Notice that, after they land, he raps Waters pretty smartly on the head and seems to be checking on Gilman's condition (as if Waters had done something wrong that could have possibly injured Gilman,) 

 

Also Shields wasn't in position to see Waters push off with the elbow, as he's turned towards the scorer's table giving the sign for an illegal move.  Then, when Gilman tries to take Waters down, Shields attention is drawn back to the wrestlers and he interprets that action as unsportsmanlike conduct by Gilman.  (The other ref was in position to see the elbow, but it probably wasn't egregious enough to warrant a penalty, so he likely didn't mention it to Shields.  I didn't see them get together to confer on the calls.)

 

In summary, Shields may have just got caught up in thinking that Waters needed to return Gilman to the mat, causing him to anticipate/misinterpret the slam.  Then he missed the elbow and thought Gilman was retaliating for being slammed - well after the whistle was blown.  That's the only scenario I can think of that would explain the calls that were reportedly made.

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Regarding the sequence, is there any chace Waters reached a 5 count while being drapped over Gilman for a SW?  Not even sure if that would have been his 2nd warning and gave Gilman a point?  Prolly not the case, but the thought crossed my mind.

 

Good observation.  You can see Shields laying down and making 3 swipes while Gilman tripods up.  Then he gets up to his knees right before Gilman launches Waters, so I'm thinking he could have gotten to a 4-count but perhaps not all the way to 5.

 

Anyway, the more I watch that video, the more I'm inclined to believe that Shields mistakenly believed that Waters pulled back forcefully on Gilman initiating the slam.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Good observation.  You can see Shields laying down and making 3 swipes while Gilman tripods up.  Then he gets up to his knees right before Gilman launches Waters, so I'm thinking he could have gotten to a 4-count but perhaps not all the way to 5.

 

Anyway, the more I watch that video, the more I'm inclined to believe that Shields mistakenly believed that Waters pulled back forcefully on Gilman initiating the slam.

Hurricane, that's how I interpret the official's actions.  And I will say it again.  If that's how he viewed the sequence of events, he need not be officiating at the college level.  To somehow think Waters was able to pull back Gilman and slam himself to the mat is just stupid.  The official does not understand the basic laws of gravity or physics and should not be officiating at the college level -- maybe not at any level.  Furthermore, the assistant official should have intervened and corrected the call.  I'm afraid both officials were too intimidated by the Iowa coaches/crowd to officiate objectively.  

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I see three different signals in that sequence.

First, illegal hold to which he gave a point to green.

Then USC (outstretched left hand palm flat).

Then unnecessary roughness (outstretched right hand with closed fist). However, the book shows the signal for ur as a forward stretch he did it with hand to the side.

 

While the NCAA doesn't have a true signal for a bench warning or coach warning, this is the signal commonly used for those incidents (same as high school).  Thought the NCAA used that signal a few years ago but took it out of the book.

 

 

 

 

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Rakkasan, weren't you saying earlier that an illegal move penalty followed immediately by unsportsmanlike constituted flagrant misconduct?  If Tim Shiels had called the slam correctly, then penalized Gilman for US, doesn't this situation qualify?

 

EDIT:  No, I went back and looked and it was RichB that was asserting that point.  Can you confirm or deny?

Edited by tigerfan9311

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No, after watching the Big 10 replay, Shane reported what Mike Allen said, not the mat official.  Allen simply told Sparks what the hand signals were.  Allen was behind the scorer's table as the Big 10 official.  He likely saw everything we did and had zero time to confer with the mat official or check a replay.  So while Shane correctly said head official in his OP, that head official was likely as confused as us.  If anyone Tivo'd it, look at Allen's face at :05 left in that OT period; Sparks is right next to him.  He was hoping a Snickers bar would have fell from the Carver rafters.

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No, after watching the Big 10 replay, Shane reported what Mike Allen said, not the mat official.  Allen simply told Sparks what the hand signals were.  Allen was behind the scorer's table as the Big 10 official.  He likely saw everything we did and had zero time to confer with the mat official or check a replay.  So while Shane correctly said head official in his OP, that head official was likely as confused as us.  If anyone Tivo'd it, look at Allen's face at :05 left in that OT period; Sparks is right next to him.  He was hoping a Snickers bar would have fell from the Carver rafters.

 

I can see where that might appear to be the case from watching the BTN replay. However, from reading Shane's post, it appears he was reporting what the mat official said.  He said "I talked with the head official a couple of times before I reported."  Then later he said "I also talked to Mike Allen to help clarify, but he had no comment." (Link to his post below.)

 

http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/8768-shane-sparks-slam-report/

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It was a horrendous call.  You wouldn't see that call made in any middle school level tournament anywhere in the country.  Why and how these refes lose their minds in CHA is a source of frustration for all fans of this sport.   These refs need to have enough composure to make the right calls even when their is a little pressure on them.  This ref embarrassed the sport and is a clown, no way around it.

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I can see where that might appear to be the case from watching the BTN replay. However, from reading Shane's post, it appears he was reporting what the mat official said.  He said "I talked with the head official a couple of times before I reported."  Then later he said "I also talked to Mike Allen to help clarify, but he had no comment." (Link to his post below.)

 

http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/8768-shane-sparks-slam-report/

 

Shane Sparks needs to explicitly say that he talked to Tim Shiels.  Talking to Mike Allen or to the head scoring official adds nothing to help us understanding this situation.

 

It appears that Shiels intended to signal Gilman for the slam, but got the similar singlet colors confused and mis-signalled his intentions.

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