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Itmeagain

Cael Sanderson Record should have 1 loss (at least)

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The Presidential race is over, so lets not continue the mudslinging. If Dake wins title number 4, while twice beating a great wrestler like Taylor, and at 4 different weights,then he belongs in the top 5 all time great College wrestlers. Not winning as dominant as Sanderson did during his career doesn't take away from this possible great feat. It also takes great determination to win so many close matches, being challenged over and over, and always coming up victorious when it matters most.

 

John Smith may be our countries best wrestler ever, Cael may be the most dominant (especially in College), Taylor may be the most decorated, but for me, my favorite of all time is Gable. He showed us that we didn't have to be afraid of the Russians. That we could dominate as well.

 

cya

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After Cael... I would put Mcilravy, tom brands, Gable, kolat, Pat smith, and probably a couple others ahead of Kyle Dake. If he wins his fourth he might make the top 5. If Taylor and Ruth win the next 2 NCAAs assuming Taylor beats dake at NCAAs( where they call stalling) then Taylor and Ruth would clearly be ranked ahead of Dake. Cael majored , tech falled, or pinned such a higher percentage of his opponents that he is in a class by himself. The above guys were offensive machines excluding Dake. Dake may be the greatest defensive wrestler of all time....just incredible....I also give him credit to putting it on the line to face Taylor! BUT he hasn't scored the bonus points that warrant him being even mentioned in the same sentence as Cael. I didn't even know what to say to our elementary wrestlers after Dake wrestled at the all star classic. " alright boys lets do what dake just did Tap the head twice ....backup Tap the head twice ..backup out of bounds. Drove them all the way to D.C. to see that. You should have heard their comments.

 

If Taylor beats Dake at NCAAs and finishes his career a 3x champ then you'll have an argument to put him over Dake. But if Dake wins again, beating Taylor again on the way, then all we've really learned is that running up the score isn't always the best indicator of who the better wrestler is. For Cael it was, but perhaps not for Taylor. I just watched Dake's match from the Vegas finals where he beat a kid (Monk) who's ranked 7th or so by a score of 6-0. A pretty classic Dake match with lots of time spent on top and not very much action. The kid actually made the match seem closer than it should have been. I'm not sure if Taylor has ever wrestled that kid, but I'd be surprised if Taylor didn't run up the score on him and win by a larger margin than Dake. And when Cael used to wrestle 7th ranked kids at his weight, if they managed not to get pinned they'd lose 20-5. So yeah, Dake doesn't usually win by impressive numbers, yet he manages to win against almost everyone he wrestles, including Taylor so far. Big difference between Dake and Taylor right now is that Dake is batting 1000 in the NCAA finals at this point, without a redshirt, and Taylor is 1 for 2. If Dake wins title number 4 it's nearly impossible to put him outside the top 5 of all time, regardless of his margin of victories.

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I think this is actually a VERY easy argument to put to bed. Barring a medical hardship, you only get 4 years to compete for your team, meaning your results count for the team score. And even with injury you still only get 4 cracks at the DI National Championships. In the 4 years he competed FOR (attached) ISU he was undefeated. NOONE can argue OTHERWISE. While Cael wrestled ATTACHED FOR ISU at DI sanctioned events he was UNDEFEATED. I admit that I have not been a big fan of the guy since the Bubba Jenkins ordeal but this petty attack is a JOKE.

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I think this is actually a VERY easy argument to put to bed. Barring a medical hardship, you only get 4 years to compete for your team, meaning your results count for the team score. And even with injury you still only get 4 cracks at the DI National Championships. In the 4 years he competed FOR (attached) ISU he was undefeated. NOONE can argue OTHERWISE. While Cael wrestled ATTACHED FOR ISU at DI sanctioned events he was UNDEFEATED. I admit that I have not been a big fan of the guy since the Bubba Jenkins ordeal but this petty attack is a JOKE.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Rocky Marciano lost 14 fights before turning pro. He listed and is the only undefeated Heavyweight champ period. Cael is undefeated period. The only way someone tops Cael is for them to win it as a true freshman and never lose period. Dake has lost 5-his feat is great if he wins the title of course this year but in no way should he bump Cael of the top spot on the college mantle. However there is a strong case he bumps Pat Smith and Gable. and Kemp for the #2 spot.

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what if a wrestler comes in and doesnt redshirt but has one loss early in his TRUE freshmen season and then strings four ncaa championships together without ever taking another loss

 

surely that would have to top cael since he had a loss in his first year and didnt win an ncaa title

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New to the message boards....familiar with this topic.

A note worth mentioning is that Levessuer and Jared Lawrence met several times in the finals during ML's redshirt year, with the Gophs opting to not wrestle them and go Co-Champs. Lawrence won a title that year, 2001 I believe.

 

Overall, it's Apples to Oranges comparing what Sanderson and ML did respectively.

 

2 cents, if Dake goes 4 titles-4 weights, he's #1 all-time.

 

Another one trying to stir the pot and fire all ammo possible. Sorry dude, but hard to top the 0 in the 159-0.

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people are too caught up on the zero.

 

think of it this way

 

cael is like a high school wrestler in florida he is held back a year to develop then he goes undefeated and wins 4 titles

 

dake is like a wrestler that moves from new york to ohio to new jersey and to penn sure he took a few losses but he went through the toughest to win four titles and did it without taking the extra year to adjust to the new level

 

 

the states represent the talent and depth of those weight classes for those of you that are confused

 

yes cael beat some tough competition but there is always a big difference in 184/197 and 141/149/157/165 talent levels. it is the laws of probability using the bell shaped curve most people and even more wrestlers fall into dakes range than caels

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Reading this topic, I was trying to remember where I saw some documentary footage of Cody and Cael driving in a Camaro at ISU. They were talking about how Cael was going to "beat on some dudes" that night. Does anyone remember what program this clip belongs to?

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Dake is tremendous and if he wins his 4th he will definately be looked at as an all-time great.

 

 

Just looking thru the NCAA brackets 1999-2002

 

this is D1 wrestlings biggest stage...

 

one guy won 159 matches in a row during this time

 

Noticed the same guy was O.W. all four of those years

 

tough to top...

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people are too caught up on the zero.

 

It's because you just simply can't beat it. What else possibly could you do? Tech or pin every single opponent. He did beat most pretty bad.

 

Also, you mention 141-165 is tougher which it may be. It could also be argued that the upper weights are usually always the upper classmen with more experience. There is arguments for both.

 

It's no discredit to Kyle, what he is doing is phenomenal. I just don't see how you could place him above a 159-0 record.

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people are too caught up on the zero.

 

It's because you just simply can't beat it. What else possibly could you do? Tech or pin every single opponent. He did beat most pretty bad.

 

Also, you mention 141-165 is tougher which it may be. It could also be argued that the upper weights are usually always the upper classmen with more experience. There is arguments for both.

 

It's no discredit to Kyle, what he is doing is phenomenal. I just don't see how you could place him above a 159-0 record.

 

because all of his matches have counted against him he showed up to campus and went to work

 

how can you discredit the advantage of a redshirt? you even say an extra year at the upperweights is a huge advantage.

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cael may have ended his career more like jordan burroughs but he did not start his career like dake

 

officially based on the rules of his conference he can claim to be undefeated but the same rules didnt apply to levesseur or dake due to their conference rules.

 

dakes career is better imo because he has been winning as a middle weight where there are a lot more people to make up compeition and he has done it at all of the middle weights.

 

people that follow wrestling closely count all matches wrestled it doesnt matter if it is a redshirt or the allstar.

DT is going to beat Dake twice this year to end that controversy

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people are too caught up on the zero.

 

think of it this way

 

cael is like a high school wrestler in florida he is held back a year to develop then he goes undefeated and wins 4 titles

 

dake is like a wrestler that moves from new york to ohio to new jersey and to penn sure he took a few losses but he went through the toughest to win four titles and did it without taking the extra year to adjust to the new level

 

 

the states represent the talent and depth of those weight classes for those of you that are confused

 

yes cael beat some tough competition but there is always a big difference in 184/197 and 141/149/157/165 talent levels. it is the laws of probability using the bell shaped curve most people and even more wrestlers fall into dakes range than caels

 

 

Redshirt or not, in Sanderson's rs freshman season, he was undefeated (his 2nd year in a college room).

 

In Dake's sophomore season, his 2nd year in a college room, he lost to Vinson and Levalley (sp?).

 

At the 1999 NCAA's Sanderson (184) pinned Hrovat & Vering (future NC) and beat Eggum. Hrovat was a freestyle Olympian. Vering was an Olympian and a World Silver medalist in Greco. Eggum was a freestyle World Bronze medalist.

 

As a rs frosh Sanderson was named the OW over wrestlers such as Stephan Abas, Eric Guerrero, TJ Williams and Stephan Neal.

 

The middle weights may be the toughest, but the guys Sanderson was able to pad his record on weren't all that bad.

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Cael Sanderson:


    [*:3o1lfs18]159-0
    [*:3o1lfs18]4 NCAA titles
    [*:3o1lfs18]4 NCAA tournament Most Outstanding Wrestler Awards
    [*:3o1lfs18]3 Dan Hodge Trophy Awards

I don't see anyone surpassing Sanderson as the greatest in college, unless they can somehow top the above credentials. Nothing against Dake (who is one of my favorites BTW), but he can only tie Sanderson (and Pat Smith) for the most NCAA titles won.

 

Having said the above, if he does win a fourth title, he should certainly be discussed among the greatest in college history. And, while the fact that he never redshirted and has competed in four separate weight classes is impressive, I don't give that as much weight as some others do. IMO, other factors would be more valuable for making comparisons.

 

For example, Uetake wrestled in an era when guys didn't redshirt and were ineligible to wrestle varsity during their freshman years. However, he went undefeated during his college career and won three NCAA titles (including two NCAA Most Outstanding Wrestler awards). He also won one of his two Olympic Gold medals while still in college (immediately after his sophomore year).

 

In short, Uetake was the best, not only in college, but in the world by his sophomore year. So, would a fourth title at 165 pounds "prove" that Dake is a greater college wrestler than Uetake was when Yojo was at Oklahoma State? I think the answer is likely "no," although as I previously stated, a fourth title would definitely put Dake among the greatest in college history.

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Here's a question for those of you familiar with Cael's weight and record his true frosh year. Everyone is talking up Dake winning as a true frosh vs. Cael winning as a redshirt frosh. Did Cael face any AA's his true frosh year? Who is to say that Cael might not have won or at least made the podium as a true frosh had he wrestled right away. His 1 loss that year was to Paul Jenn 6-4. A 2 point loss!! He wrestled him 3 more times in his career after that and won 19-4, 10-2, and 22-7

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Considering what Sanderson did to him the following 3 matches, maybe Cael wrestled best with the "lights on" and would have won the redshirt year also if it counted. Look at the difference between Metcalf-Caldwell the all-star exhibition match and Metcalf-Caldwell the ncaa finals. Some guys are just money when it really matters. That's why trying to count something that really doesn't count is a foolish exercise.

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"Some guys are just money when it really matters."

Cael was "money" every time, wether the big lights were on or not.

Lets say Cael and Dake were on the same team, were both at 165. All they have to do is win against a 2X NCAA Champ - who do you send out if you had big money on the outcome.

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Great point.... If you had 1 wrestler to put on your team in a dual or the NCAAs .....who do you pick? Anyone that would pick anyone other than Cael is not from this planet, or a real homer

 

 

thats funny because before the olympic trials anyone not in ithaca red was picking taylor as their representative myself included the same arguement about who put up the most points and guys couldnt hang with and all that blah blah blah

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Br Guy, I thought we were comparing Cael to everyone else. That being said I would pick Taylor over Dake to be on my team as well. Now if you are saying head to head between Taylor vs Dake...based on what I witnessed at the all star classic its fifty fifty as to who would win the next match between the two. Just out of curiosity are you saying you would pick Dake over Cael to be on your team? Switching gears back to Taylor /Dake I would definitely pick Taylor to be on my tournament and dual team over Dake mainly because of his higher probability to score bonus points for my team.

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Great point.... If you had 1 wrestler to put on your team in a dual or the NCAAs .....who do you pick? Anyone that would pick anyone other than Cael is not from this planet, or a real homer

 

 

thats funny because before the olympic trials anyone not in ithaca red was picking taylor as their representative myself included the same arguement about who put up the most points and guys couldnt hang with and all that blah blah blah

 

I'll take Taylor vs the field all day over Dake vs the field. Dake vs Taylor, the evidence up to now suggests Dake would be the better choice.

 

For what it's worth, I'll go with any undefeated champ over both of these two.

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