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Shahin2000

Jordan Burroughs comparison to Aleksandr Karelin

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Ok guys I am by no means an expert in wrestling.  In fact many of you Americans know more about Iran's wrestling than I do.  In any case I like to throw this out to you guys.  Many people often try to compare players like Lebron and Kobe and the likes to Michael.  There will never ever be anyone like him.  However, when it comes to the wrestling's greatest, the first wrestler that comes to people's minds is Aleksandr Karelin.  The guy was supremely athletic and many NFL scouts were begging him to switch sports.  I believe if there is anyone that comes close to Karelin's dominance and athleticism is JB.  What do you guys think?

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No. The gap is pretty huge here. Burroughs can be a international great but never in the conversation as greatest ever, sorry. Way to many close matches. This is kinda like the argument that Dake is in the conversation with Sanderson on greatest american (folk) wrestler ever. Again Dake is one of the greats but should never be in the conversation of greatest ever. Again, way to many close matches and loses. Karelin and Sanderson are the best case closed. If Sadulleav keeps this pace up through 2020 then we may be talking about him being on Karelin's level. B Satiev had to many close matches and loses. but it is much harder to dominate freestyle because of the depth of competition is much deeper. 

Edited by PRyan2012

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Burroughs has a LONG way to go to make that list. He's not even the best in the history of USA Wrestling, let alone the world.

 

I wouldn't call Karelin the best ever either. The dude wrestled at heavyweight, a notoriously less athletic weight than Burroughs' 74 kilo class. He also wrestled Greco and not Freestyle. No slight on Greco at all, but Karelin wasn't exactly a beast on his feet. He made his money on top. To me, given his weight and his ability to wrestle very, very well in every position, I'd say Hamid Sourian is higher on the list than Karelin.

 

Best ever? Where do you start and what do you consider. Medals alone don't tell the whole story.

 

MY thoughts on best ever at this point:

 

1. S. Beloglazov

2. A. Fadzaev

3. B. Saitiev

4. I. Jordanov

5. H. Sourian

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Hard to compare Greco and fs. The fact that Sourian and Lopez continue to dominate through a constant rule change cycle that makes Greco predictions like throwing darts blindfolded at other weights, they are definitely in competition. Sourian does have some big losses though.

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It's difficult to rank anyone over Karelin and to use competition in the weight class as reasoning.   Ask yourself, can any of those all time greats listed, Beloglazov, Fadzaev, etc., have beaten Karelin, never mind match his accomplishments.   And in the USA greco is the red headed step child but not in all parts of the world.  in fact it is the classic style, more prestigious in many regions.   Iirc, Karelin was a junior stand out in freestyle and could have picked either style, ultimately settling on the more technical style of greco.   

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"No slight on Greco at all, but Karelin wasn't exactly a beast on his feet. He made his money on top."

 

Tofurky, karelin wrestled most of his career without forced par terre. which means he had to be pretty amazing from his feet to get on top enough to dominate on top. He was.

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No one I have ever seen can match the spectacle of Karelin; it really is like watching a science-fiction movie. He also could do a full split, received a PhD in education, and gave up probably 10 points in 18 years of competition, losing only two 1-point matches.  I'm surprised he didn't also wrestle freestyle just to double dip on the medals.

 

If we are just talking about career dominance, then no one besides those Tofurky mentioned are close.

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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Not even close at all.  Karelin was just dominant in a way that maybe you can for a year or two, but for over a decade?  When you can count the number of points scored against you in that timespan on one hand that's pretty unreal.  I think he gave up a point or two in the 88 Olympic finals, and I think he got scored in in 90 or 91 at worlds.  Then I think after that it was all shutouts until Rulon beat him 1-0 in 2000. 

 

Burroughs is a great wrestler, but short of winning every gold medal through the next 3 cycles and not losing ever again I don't think he could even be in the same conversation with Karelin.

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It is embarrassing that  anyone is even bringing up Burroughs in this conversation. For me it is clear. Karelin in international wrestling and Sanderson in Folk and it is not even close.  The only argument here is could Karelin have done it in freestyle. Who was the best during his run-Big Bruce? He would have taken Big Bruce but there could be an argument there due to Greco being weaker competition level. The reason is dominance period. Burroughs has dozens of close matches already and two loses but still could be in the conversation if he can make a magical run through 2020 but that seems unlikely.  

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It is embarrassing that  anyone is even bringing up Burroughs in this conversation. For me it is clear. Karelin in international wrestling and Sanderson in Folk and it is not even close.  The only argument here is could Karelin have done it in freestyle. Who was the best during his run-Big Bruce? He would have taken Big Bruce but there could be an argument there due to Greco being weaker competition level. The reason is dominance period. Burroughs has dozens of close matches already and two loses but still could be in the conversation if he can make a magical run through 2020 but that seems unlikely.  

clearly a false statement.

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Hold on a second here before calling the comparison stupid.

 

Go back and watch 3-4 actual, full legnth Karelin matches and tell me that Burroughs isnt a way better athlete and has way more skills.  Thats not even a comparison.  JB is a way, way better athlete in terms of speed, agility, and scrambling.  His ability to score is also way more dynamic and frequent.  JB puts up 8x more points than Karelin.

 

Did Karelin win more than JB?  Sure, over his whole career he did.  Just watching the two compete, it is clearly obvious to anyone who views more than a Karelin highlight, that JB is right on the level or even much higher than Karelin as an athlete and dynamic scoring.

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Hold on a second here before calling the comparison stupid.

 

Go back and watch 3-4 actual, full legnth Karelin matches and tell me that Burroughs isnt a way better athlete and has way more skills.  Thats not even a comparison.  JB is a way, way better athlete in terms of speed, agility, and scrambling.  His ability to score is also way more dynamic and frequent.  JB puts up 8x more points than Karelin.

 

Did Karelin win more than JB?  Sure, over his whole career he did.  Just watching the two compete, it is clearly obvious to anyone who views more than a Karelin highlight, that JB is right on the level or even much higher than Karelin as an athlete and dynamic scoring.

using the scoring rules from the late 80's-90's for both, karelin likely (i'm not gonna count) scored more match pionts and way more classification points.

 

the dymamically part can be debated. i think picking someone up and putting the on their head is more dynamic than scoring with a double or low ankle counter shot with no exposure. also, the fact that karelin was proficeint enough to avoid scrambles puts him a class above.

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OP defined greatness, for this discussion, in terms of athleticism and dominance.  For dominance the comparison is absolutely silly.  For athleticism the comparison is much more nuanced and we would probably need to assign weight to different categories like strength/power/flexibility/agility etc. per pound.  The fact that Burroughs isn't clearly a better pound for pound athlete than Karelin (to me at least) is pretty astonishing considering the average 130kg vs. 74kg wrestler.

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Ok guys I am by no means an expert in wrestling.  In fact many of you Americans know more about Iran's wrestling than I do.  In any case I like to throw this out to you guys.  Many people often try to compare players like Lebron and Kobe and the likes to Michael.  There will never ever be anyone like him.  However, when it comes to the wrestling's greatest, the first wrestler that comes to people's minds is Aleksandr Karelin.  The guy was supremely athletic and many NFL scouts were begging him to switch sports.  I believe if there is anyone that comes close to Karelin's dominance and athleticism is JB.  What do you guys think?

 

Little to none.

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Hold on a second here before calling the comparison stupid.

 

Go back and watch 3-4 actual, full legnth Karelin matches and tell me that Burroughs isnt a way better athlete and has way more skills.  Thats not even a comparison.  JB is a way, way better athlete in terms of speed, agility, and scrambling.  His ability to score is also way more dynamic and frequent.  JB puts up 8x more points than Karelin.

 

Did Karelin win more than JB?  Sure, over his whole career he did.  Just watching the two compete, it is clearly obvious to anyone who views more than a Karelin highlight, that JB is right on the level or even much higher than Karelin as an athlete and dynamic scoring.

 

 

I'm not sold on the athleticism advantage.  Burroughs is very impressive with how quick and explosive he is no doubt.  But just as impressive to me is Karelin's power and brute force.   If I had to pick one over the other, I'm probably more impressed by a 300 pounder doing what Karelin did than by a 180 pounder doing what Burroughs does.   

Edited by Cletus_Tucker

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