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HoundedHawk

Stalling is going to kill our sport . . . something must change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I used to take numerous people with me to college wrestling, but now I can't.  It's just too stinking boring.

 

Look at the B1G tourney.  Evans doesn't record a single TD and manages 3rd.  What does that say? Both him and Storley should have been stalled out and each disqualified by the end of the 1st.

 

Look at the mindset of our wrestlers.  Tomasello wins the B1G title and in an interview brags about keeping on his offense!!  He took ONE shot, and even the absolutely pathetically "slow to call stalling" refs gave him stall calls.   

 

People are winning by stinking riding time with not even a hint of back exposure.  BOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Either the refs have to radically enforce the actual rules, or new rules are needed.  I've already advocated the pushout.  I think that would help fix it, too.  

 

This will be my 21st NCAA championships I've gone to.  I'm appalled at how most matches have slowly evolved into an event during which my mind actually starts wandering.  

Edited by HoundedHawk

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I used to take numerous people with me to college wrestling, but now I can't.  It's just too stinking boring.

 

Look at the B1G tourney.  Evans doesn't record a single TD and manages 3rd.  What does that say? Both him and Storley should have been stalled out and each disqualified by the end of the 1st.

 

Look at the mindset of our wrestlers.  Tomasello wins the B1G title and in an interview brags about keeping on his offense!!  He took ONE shot, and even the absolutely pathetically slow to call stalling refs gave him stall calls.   

 

People are winning by stinking riding time with not even a hit of back exposure.  BOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Either the refs have to radically enforce the actual rules, or new rules are needed.  I've already advocated the pushout.  I think that would help fix it, too.  

 

This will be my 21st NCAA championships I've gone to.  I'm appalled at how most matches have slowly evolved into an event during which my mind actually starts wandering.  

Have you considered that wrestlers don't compete for your enjoyment?

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I don't think I would go so far as to say it is boring, but you have a good point.  It really is becoming an advantage for many wrestlers to be defensive and a good rider.  keep the match 1-1 and then win the ride out in OT.  Maybe a simple answer that would help a bit is to make OT sudden death to the end?  That may make it worse too?

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I don't think I would go so far as to say it is boring, but you have a good point.  It really is becoming an advantage for many wrestlers to be defensive and a good rider.  keep the match 1-1 and then win the ride out in OT.  Maybe a simple answer that would help a bit is to make OT sudden death to the end?  That may make it worse too?

What I know is that far more matches are more boring than the wrestling decades ago, and it's getting worse. 

Edited by HoundedHawk

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I had the finals on pvr and watched with my button on fast forward. There were done good matches- 41,57,84 and 74 and heavy had its moments but a lot of them were won with a single takedown (25,33,65,97) or none (49). I gave a pretty high boredom threshold- I like watching Greco- but come on guys. One score in 7 minutes...

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1) step out penalty

 

2) tweak riding time. if you get a stalling call while on top you should be ineligible for a riding time point. right now guys are incentivized to hold on to an ankle if there is less than 5 seconds in a period or if they have a caution to give. also give the bottom many the option for a non scoring restart if you go out of bounds or have a stalemate called. 

 

3) criteria (first or last score) instead of OT. you have 7 minutes to win a match. that is it. 

 

but more likely nothing will change. i dont think the perceived lack of action on the mat is killing wrestling, since even if you made these improvements you wouldn't move the needle much, but it would help. 

 

just my 2 cents!

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I agree with Houndedhawk that it is becoming painful to watch some of these 1-1 matches. 

 

Instiute the pushout rule so guys quit playing the edge.  It has worked great in freestyle. 

 

Telling refs to call stalling will not work.  We have been hearing for 20 years or more on how there will be a new emphasis on stalling calls this year, yet the refs all seem to be scared to death of angering the coaches with a stall call, no matter how blatant it is.  The best they can do is a meaningless stall warning with 20 seconds left in the match. 

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I think that riding time absolutely needs done away with or I have another option. Erase escape points....Hear me out..If you can not turn a wrestler but you gain no advantage by staying on top I believe more wrestlers would be willing to go back to there feet than stay on the mat. If we don't want to erase the escape pt I say make a takedown worth 3, that way when someone does get out you still have a 2pt advantage rather than making a takedown with an escape a 1pt match.  149 and 165 both were matches decided by clinging on top and not working to score which KILLS the sport to an average fan. My wife watches wrestling with me but needless to say during several of the finals matches I peered over at her and she is playing on her phone due to the inactivity on the TV. Wrestling matches like 133 141 157 184 kept her attention and I applaud the competitors for putting on a show both the guys who lost and the guys who won. I'd rather see a 5pt loss like Taylor had than a 1pt differential in the 97 bout. Razor thin low scoring matches with little to no action will not ever appeal to the casual fan. 2cts..

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Sunday morning some friends and I were eating breakfast in the dining area at the Blackwell hotel next to St Johns arena. In comes Mike Allen and he sits down at the table next to us. We began talking, great guy BTW, specifically on the issue of refs not calling stalling. Being a Buckeye fan I brought up Logans match with Ashnault. I swear on my sons life, Mike beat me to the punch and said how does a guy get rode for over 5 minutes and NOT get called for stalling? I wasnt expecting that from him. I was expecting him to defend the ref but he did exactly the opposite. He said he has no clue what that ref was thinking. He went on to say he has meetings with these refs at which stalling is gone over and over, he says some just refuse to call stalling when it is warranted. Whether it be pressure of a big match, old habits, personal views, ect.

 

Another example he brought up was the new rule regarding dropping to a leg while on top (5 count gets you a stall warning). He cited Delgados match with Nato. In this example Delgado had dropped down to the leg and recieved a 4 count before pushing Nate out of bounds on count number 5. They were brought back to the center to restart. Delgado goes right back down to the leg, now at this point the ref is NOT suppose to start counting again, its suppose to be an automatic stall warning. This prevents guys from simply dropping for 4 seconds and jumping up to the waste, then dropping back down for 4 seconds and so on. In that match the ref did NOT call stalling as the rules state. I didnt know this rule, this was explained to me by Allen himself. This was just another example, im sure there were many cases where stalling wasnt called correctly.

 

Allen went on to say they may try a new tactic next year regardjng video review. Having 1 or 2 refs whos only job is to review challenged calls. This takes the original ref who made the call out of the equation, preventing any type of bias in the part of the original ref. It must be hard to admit you were wrong, and I imagine alot of refs have upheld their calls just to save face. So, keep an eye and an ear out for this.

 

Really nice guy, very honest and courteous. His job cant be an easy one.

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Sunday morning some friends and I were eating breakfast in the dining area at the Blackwell hotel next to St Johns arena. In comes Mike Allen and he sits down at the table next to us. We began talking, great guy BTW, specifically on the issue of refs not calling stalling. Being a Buckeye fan I brought up Logans match with Ashnault. I swear on my sons life, Mike beat me to the punch and said how does a guy get rode for over 5 minutes and NOT get called for stalling? I wasnt expecting that from him. I was expecting him to defend the ref but he did exactly the opposite. He said he has no clue what that ref was thinking. He went on to say he has meetings with these refs at which stalling is gone over and over, he says some just refuse to call stalling when it is warranted. Whether it be pressure of a big match, old habits, personal views, ect.

 

Another example he brought up was the new rule regarding dropping to a leg while on top (5 count gets you a stall warning). He cited Delgados match with Nato. In this example Delgado had dropped down to the leg and recieved a 4 count before pushing Nate out of bounds on count number 5. They were brought back to the center to restart. Delgado goes right back down to the leg, now at this point the ref is NOT suppose to start counting again, its suppose to be an automatic stall warning. This prevents guys from simply dropping for 4 seconds and jumping up to the waste, then dropping back down for 4 seconds and so on. In that match the ref did NOT call stalling as the rules state. I didnt know this rule, this was explained to me by Allen himself. This was just another example, im sure there were many cases where stalling wasnt called correctly.

 

Allen went on to say they may try a new tactic next year regardjng video review. Having 1 or 2 refs whos only job is to review challenged calls. This takes the original ref who made the call out of the equation, preventing any type of bias in the part of the original ref. It must be hard to admit you were wrong, and I imagine alot of refs have upheld their calls just to save face. So, keep an eye and an ear out for this.

 

Really nice guy, very honest and courteous. His job cant be an easy one.

 

The 5 second crap has backfired and made it even worse.  Now refs are not only not calling stalling all the times they are supposed to that has nothing to do with the 5 second count but the wrestlers now purposely stall until they ref gets around to starting a count and then adjust quick when it gets to 4 and then start over again.  Get rid of the damn count and just call the crap! The 1 stalemate followed by an auto stall was better than this garbage. If the refs won't call the rules as stated find some who will!  

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I agree with HH.  Coaches and wrestlers have gamed the system  It's time for the system to evolve.  My proposals...

 

Escape points should be earned not given.  So action goes out of bounds, top wrestler can choose neutral without losing a point.

Riding time.  First to a minute, gets it.  After that it cannot be erased.  Stops wrestler from trying to bring down opponents riding time.

Out of bounds. So tired of seeing wrestlers play the edge.  Two supporting points out in neutral, opponent has zero supporting points out, then that is a point.

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"Escape points should be earned not given.  So action goes out of bounds, top wrestler can choose neutral without losing a point."

 

Double edged sword. Could have a wrestler crawl out of bounds or have a wrestler driven out of bounds because he got to his feet via a stand up. Different situations. 

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"Escape points should be earned not given.  So action goes out of bounds, top wrestler can choose neutral without losing a point."

 

Double edged sword. Could have a wrestler crawl out of bounds or have a wrestler driven out of bounds because he got to his feet via a stand up. Different situations. 

 

 

Agreed, this will never work. Guys will just cut the bottom man right as he is getting out so as to not give him the chance to "earn" the escape.

 

We go through this topic multiple times every year. It's a three-headed problem: 

  1. Guys are just better now than in the past (natural evolution of athletes and technique) with more parity (attrition of programs). So you have a more evenly matched field.
  2. The refs do not call the rules as they are written (in particular, for stalling.... and don't even get me started again on the "no reaction time" topic...)
  3. There are no serious consequences to refs who fail at their job

I like occasionally adding rules to evolve the sport and add new elements to it, such as a pushout. But I am not in favor of adjusting rules to deal with problems #2 and #3. Then you end up making the problem worse, because if refs don't follow the rules as written, then what makes you think changing the rules is going to make a difference????

 

Referee compliance to rules is the issue. Reward good compliance (and performance) and punish bad. Easier said than done, but if the main problem is that refs are not calling the rules correctly, changing the rules again is not a viable solution.

 

Either find a better way to police referee compliance or make the rules so subjective that you end up fundamentally changing the sport. I know which way i would focus on...

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Start by eliminating riding time (stalling time) immediately after NCAAs this year. The objective of riding should be to turn and pin, not to maintain and control for a minute more than your opponent.

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Lots of ideas to revamp college wrestling; maybe the least drastic solution is to set times (or at least suggested times) for stalling calls. Two minutes standing with no takedown, 30 seconds riding with no serious attempt to turn (or escape) and the least active guy gets told to get on it by the refs. If he doesn't immediately pick it up, stalling penalty. No more standing (and lying) around. Blatant stalling (running away, ankle riding, etc) tends to get penalized but many awful matches just feature guys who are content to stand around for a while. Take that option away.

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I have often said that college wrestling is not dying, it is already dead. The on the mat product is so dull that people would sooner watch bad reality tv than go to a wrestling meet. Until officials change their tune and force action via calling matches correctly, no other rule or format changes will work.

Edited by heelpick

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One more rules comment. Anyone rembrr that scramble at 74 where Kokesh was looking for the fall for quite a whole, but wasn't scoring because Brown was holding into something or other. He finally scored when he stopped trying to pin and spun behind. A rule system where it benefits defensive guy to lay there almost pinned is in need of repair IMO.

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One more rules comment. Anyone rembrr that scramble at 74 where Kokesh was looking for the fall for quite a whole, but wasn't scoring because Brown was holding into something or other. He finally scored when he stopped trying to pin and spun behind. A rule system where it benefits defensive guy to lay there almost pinned is in need of repair IMO.

It was Brown who had Kokesh all but pinned during a scramble he initiated late in the second, but Kokesh kept working and eventually came away with the TD.

Edited by kad

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Watched the big ten also and the lack of true offensive attacks was just down right embarrassing. While at the bigs we caught some of the mac on espn3' there were matches in which wrestlers never attempted a true shot. I think the only way you address this is to create an edge rule and address the top man on the ride position. So many times you see the to guy parallel on the hips holding a wrist. What is the bottom guy supposed to do, if bottom guy is working to base and up and top guy keeps pressuring to get him flat it is just boring. If top man does not initial a turn in 30 seconds put them neutral

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