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HoundedHawk

Stalling is going to kill our sport . . . something must change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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...Mike beat me to the punch and said how does a guy get rode for over 5 minutes and NOT get called for stalling? I wasnt expecting that from him.

It wouldn't surprise you much if you had ever wrestled on his mat. He made you bust your butt.

 

Really nice guy, very honest and courteous.

Yes, he is. Allen is the best of the best. He and Don Holmes were the two best officials I knew and wrestled for. Allen had great control of the mat and would reverse himself without hesitation. At the '02 Midlands he ended a 5th place TB match by instantly calling stalling on Derek Jenkins for dropping to the ankle twice on Alex Tirapelle. Allen made the calls he felt needed made no matter the match.

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Three points for a takedown makes mathematical sense and would open up attacks. Right now a wrestler can win a 3-2 match with no takedown or back points and only be in control for 1 minute in a 7 minute match. The old adage that defense wins championships is alive in well in all sports right now. The difference is that other sports (football and basketball especially) tweak the rules to shift the balance. I realize that many will say football has gone too far and it probably has but at least they are cognizant that there is a problem and are willing to try new ideas to address it.

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DVR's were created for collegiate wrestling. I play it back later and I just FF until I see someone scored. Rewind a bit, watch the scoring sequence and then repeat. I will say that it is a sad day when 125 is more boring than either 197 or Hwt. Thank God for wrestlers like Stieber, Martinez and Ness. I love that Ness goes for it. Seems like some guys feel that losing 3-2 is better than 10-4. Who cares, you lost. Why not lay it all on the line?

 

Why can't the refs just warn both guys early when hand fighting leads to zero real attempts? I understand that defenses are better now than in the past, but so are the different types of attacks. Warn them early on their feet, so that we don't get into the typical situation where the first stalling warning occurs with 30 seconds in the match.

 

I love wrestling, but it is trying really hard to make me go away

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painful to watch.

 

Thank god we have,

 

I Mart

Palacio

Ness

Steiber

Ian Miller

 

 

 

tired of watching no shots, and I push foward. effective, but ugh the worst to watch. I root against Iowa for no reason except painful to watch. Brands is good coach I like watching him more then his wrestlers more exciting.

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The step out is a good idea. Also, you can keep riding time, BUT if the top man fails to turn the bottom man after 20 seconds, put both wrestlers on their feet.

Give the top guy 45 seconds. If no turn then up to their feet with no escape point. If back points are awarded from a turn where the count starts within the 45 second time frame, then the top guy gets the whole two minutes to try for more. Keep the riding clock for timing the 45 seconds, but not for riding time. Resets for the next TD when wrestlers go neutral. 

 

Critical--The bottom wrestler has only 45 seconds to escape so aggressive stalling calls on the top wrestler. Consider NO ankle grabs (unless it's part of a pinning combination).

 

Just thinking out loud.

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Save Wrestling

 

Simpler, not more complicated.  Less subjective power to the refs, not more.

 

1) Push out = 1 point. Playing the edge sucks

 

2) Eliminate riding time.  A great idea when people actually tried to turn their opponent, but not anymore.

 

3) More Women's wrestling programs.  While often unmentioned, women's programs will be the true savior of the sport.

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You know, I'm not sure why someone accused you of having a vendetta against iowa...

 

 

And I'm shocked - SHOCKED - that an Iowa fan wants to see more STALLING called. I'm equally shocked - SHOCKED - that 100's of Hawkeye Report posts think everyone wrestling against Iowa this past weekend except maybe I Mar was stalling.

 

I want more action too, everyone does, but I just watched two big events where it seems every wrestler with a lead on an Iowa kid had the crowd yelling for stalling against him and like clockwork the official dinged him for stalling. I don't want to go back to the days where the Iowa coach can ramp everyone in the arena up against the better wrestler so that the slower Iowa wrestler can get some stalling points to pull them through. That would be worse than anything else. 

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What's really crazy is Iowa is as guilty, if not more so, of stalling then any other team out there yet their fans continue to lecture others about how stalling is killing the sport. AGAIN, grabbing your opponent and pushing forward without a single takedown attempt isn't wrestling, well maybe Sumo. It results in no action other then a lot of restarts, BORING! Sorenson, Evans, Clark all guilty of this so called stall riding, and I've seen plenty of Iowa wrestling put on their track shoes with a slim lead. Maybe not for 2 periods like Nato, lol, but they do it. 

 

Here's a new rule suggestion, whenever a wrestler ties up his opponent and starts pushing forward, the ref starts a 5 count and if the wrestler doesn't shoot, the action is stopped and a stall warning is issued. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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The biggest solution is the referee's must call stalling, especially on the top wrestler. Sitting on an ankle and pushing the bottom guys arms out is just ridiculous(Tsirtsis, Mcintosh). I'm not faulting those guys, because they did what they had to do win, because officials refuse to call stalling.

 

I think the neutral wrestling is tougher to solve. Defense is so good now, more often than not guys are just waiting on your attack so they can counter and score. That said, I thought the 125 match was a perfect example of what is wrong with college wrestling. Tomasello, a guy I like, that typically gets after it for 7 minutes, scores an early takedown and literally shuts down the rest of the match. There's no way that should be allowed, he should have been dinged for stalling 5 times. But until officials call it, nothing will change.

 

I'm all for getting rid of riding time, the pushout, and putting guys on there feet( with no escape pt. if no turn occurs within 30 seconds.)

 

When people that love wrestling are forced to watch matches in fast forward, which I'm guilty of, we have a problem.

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Refs love to call stalling with 20 seconds left in the match.

You are correct, but usually only a warning.  Occasionally they will actually ding someone a point if it doesn't change the outcome of the match. 

 

Totally meaningless stall calls at the end of the match are all we see. 

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Stalling, riding time, escape points, takedown points, not easily resolved.

 

However video review. I believe in the NHL all video review is done at league headquarters. Therefore, A ref or the assistant may immediately ask to review what they called, and do it themselves. However, if a coach asks for a review, another ref should do that. Kind of like when a defendant or litigant appeals a judges actions, the judge in question should not be reviewing his own actions. (unbelievably there have been many cases where the first appeal went back to the original judge)

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Rd149: The 3 pt. td has some merit. It would be like football's touch down and extra point (7) being more valuable than 2 field goals (6), thereby making the goal line more important. Now the takedown is 2 and is equal to two escapes or one escape and riding time.

 

A 3 pt. td forces an opponent to do more than ride or escape, and if you get rid of RT that puts even greater pressure on takedown skill. But getting rid of RT may be hard at the college level due to tradition or maybe just not wanting to admit the high schools got it right first.

 

what's that definition of insanity... refusing to change and expecting change?

 

Thinking about the pro game-- no scoring, just pre-planned pins. Everybody knows it's fake; they don't care, they want action, the more bizarre the better. It's tough to be honest and exciting in a sport where you're trying to hold your opponent still in and in place combined with freezing from fear of making mistakes. It's the freezing and stillness that ruins everything. 

 

Is it style or lack of confidence or the nature of the sport? We definitely have a dearth of daring. Everyone can't be a Martinez, Taylor, Cael, etc. Some people just don't care about the point system. They're wide open. Can that be cloned?

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I have been in favor of allowing the opponent of the wrestler who is called for stalling his choice of positions. I think referees would be more inclined to call stalling because no penalty points would be awarded. The wrestlers would actually determine the outcome in all matches.

 

It would add to coaching strategy, specifically because of riding time. Say your opponent has 1:10 of riding time, you are in the neutral position in the 3rd period. Do you take top to kill the riding time, or take bottom to score an escape point.

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So, if the bottom man does absolutely zero to free himself, or cannot extricate himself, he gets rewarded?  And because the top man has the ability to control the bottom man, top man gets penalized and taken out of a position of advantage?  We want a rule that takes the bottom man out of a position of disadvantage and puts him into a better situation?  Because many of today’s wrestlers compete in freestyle, they have lost the ability to move on bottom, and not coincidentally, the top man does not learn how to ride correctly.   Back in my day,  wrestlers who did not learn proper methods to escape or prevent being ridden got pounded, and rightly so. Also, back in the day, you were awarded 2pts. for two or more minutes of riding time...so you wanted to get out on bottom or learn how to ride to cancel out.  Bottom/top wrestling was much more active.


 


More often than not back then, I remember the bottom man getting called for stalling. The rules were not structured to make the top man responsible for the bottom man's action.  In overtime matches now virtually everyone takes down position on his choice. The irony is, he wrestles like a maniac to get out in 30 seconds. Somewhere in there is a lesson.  I am fundamentally opposed to the entitlement mentality that if the man on bottom can’t be turned, or get away, then he should get a free out. There should be consequences for being unable to remove himself from a position of disadvantage or if he's weak in a position, not a gift.


 


Modify the riding time award to one point for every 30 seconds of control or one point for every minute, and then top/bottom wouldn’t be so boring.  The bottom man will have open up more, and the top man will have to work harder, which should result in a more spirited and entertaining battle.  And, by the way, not all top/bottom wrestling is boring, as I have witnessed some incredibly boring neutral wrestling. 


 


Give more points for control on top and I would bet that you will see not only more and better wrestling, but more pins as well.  Here's why; in order to get out, one has to take more risk, which can translate to getting caught and put on one's back.  Down wrestlers today do just enough to not get called, while the top man has to bust his chops trying to work for a fall with the thought of getting called for stalling if he can't...Why should the top man be responsible for all the action?  Trust me, unless something unusual happens you are not going to put a decent kid on his back the way the rules are structured now.  He's just not going to take the risks that would allow that.   What promotes fan appeal is when there is continual action from both wrestlers who have been trained in escapes and riding.  That’s exciting.  Make the bottom man more accountable for the action, and to do that, award the top man more points for being in control!  I will agree that if top and bottom wrestling begins to resemble anything remotely like John duPont humping Dave's legs like that brief clip of the 2am workout in Foxcatcher then something would need to change....


 


Mat wrestling and escape techniques have all but disappeared. Coaching wrestlers to be proficient in the three disciplines, top, bottom, and neutral are what make folkstyle so difficult and exciting.  Learning how to ride and escape are the two most complicated aspects to teach as a coach and to learn as a wrestler. Those routines require much time and work and it's hard. I can fully understand why many people would like to see all wrestling transition to freestyle. In my opinion, top and bottom mastery is what separates great wrestlers from good wrestlers, especially if they are evenly matched on their feet.  Quite frankly, as much as I love wrestling, I have to admit that it is boring for me to watch three boring periods starting in neutral only to suffer through a drawn-out overtime where the match usually gets decided from top or bottom anyway. Overtime should not go past the second period.  It should be a true sudden death.  One minute first period, and if no one scores, flip the disc and give that anklet his choice, top or bottom.  Escape wins or ride out wins. If the coaches and wrestlers have been diligent in the pursuit of learning the top/bottom disciplines, the coin toss would be irrelevant because he is well trained in either position.  


 


If they are even on their feet, then the game comes down to who is better in the top and bottom position.  To me, giving the bottom guy a free up because he is inept is comparable to telling John Smith that he can't shoot a low singles in a match because his opponents are not good at stopping it or countering it...

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Save Wrestling

 

Simpler, not more complicated.  Less subjective power to the refs, not more.

 

1) Push out = 1 point. Playing the edge sucks

 

2) Eliminate riding time.  A great idea when people actually tried to turn their opponent, but not anymore.

 

3) More Women's wrestling programs.  While often unmentioned, women's programs will be the true savior of the sport.

 

Couldn't agree more. 

 

People really need to stop with "if the refs only called stalling more" - people have been saying that for the 15 years I've been following wrestling.  Stalling is broken, involves too much discretion and cannot be fixed.  Refs don't want to decide the match, they never will and it's too subjective. 

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