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HoundedHawk

Stalling is going to kill our sport . . . something must change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Anthony Gizoni from Waynesburg State College developed the move. Port Robertson the OU head coachmin the 1950s told me he went over and asked Gizoni to show him what he was doing. Port said Gizoni didn't understand why it, but that it did work. Port said he perfected it, but named it the Gizoni.

 

Briefly when an opponent's arm is over your near arm, you grasp his bicep with the hand of your near arm, he now can't pull it out. Now drop your far shoulder the mat. This will pull the top man's upper body across your back. Now simply move your hips backward until your head is out. You can then drive across for a reversal. This can be "forced" from the kneeling position. Jeff Callard a 3-time AA for OU 1973-1975 was a master of this.

 

I wished Andrew Howe had learned how to force the Gizoni, he could have reversed Chris Perry instead of getting ridden with the farside headlock. You can counter out of a chicken wing using the Gizoni, or at least keep from getting turned.

 

If you did the Gizoni from a standing position it would be a shoulder throw.

 

 

Two Gizoni threads in like 3 weeks. Wow! 

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So, if the bottom man does absolutely zero to free himself, or cannot extricate himself, he gets rewarded?  And because the top man has the ability to control the bottom man, top man gets penalized and taken out of a position of advantage?  We want a rule that takes the bottom man out of a position of disadvantage and puts him into a better situation?  Because many of today’s wrestlers compete in freestyle, they have lost the ability to move on bottom, and not coincidentally, the top man does not learn how to ride correctly.   Back in my day,  wrestlers who did not learn proper methods to escape or prevent being ridden got pounded, and rightly so. Also, back in the day, you were awarded 2pts. for two or more minutes of riding time...so you wanted to get out on bottom or learn how to ride to cancel out.  Bottom/top wrestling was much more active.

 

More often than not back then, I remember the bottom man getting called for stalling. The rules were not structured to make the top man responsible for the bottom man's action.  In overtime matches now virtually everyone takes down position on his choice. The irony is, he wrestles like a maniac to get out in 30 seconds. Somewhere in there is a lesson.  I am fundamentally opposed to the entitlement mentality that if the man on bottom can’t be turned, or get away, then he should get a free out. There should be consequences for being unable to remove himself from a position of disadvantage or if he's weak in a position, not a gift.

 

Modify the riding time award to one point for every 30 seconds of control or one point for every minute, and then top/bottom wouldn’t be so boring.  The bottom man will have open up more, and the top man will have to work harder, which should result in a more spirited and entertaining battle.  And, by the way, not all top/bottom wrestling is boring, as I have witnessed some incredibly boring neutral wrestling. 

 

Give more points for control on top and I would bet that you will see not only more and better wrestling, but more pins as well.  Here's why; in order to get out, one has to take more risk, which can translate to getting caught and put on one's back.  Down wrestlers today do just enough to not get called, while the top man has to bust his chops trying to work for a fall with the thought of getting called for stalling if he can't...Why should the top man be responsible for all the action?  Trust me, unless something unusual happens you are not going to put a decent kid on his back the way the rules are structured now.  He's just not going to take the risks that would allow that.   What promotes fan appeal is when there is continual action from both wrestlers who have been trained in escapes and riding.  That’s exciting.  Make the bottom man more accountable for the action, and to do that, award the top man more points for being in control!  I will agree that if top and bottom wrestling begins to resemble anything remotely like John duPont humping Dave's legs like that brief clip of the 2am workout in Foxcatcher then something would need to change....

 

Mat wrestling and escape techniques have all but disappeared. Coaching wrestlers to be proficient in the three disciplines, top, bottom, and neutral are what make folkstyle so difficult and exciting.  Learning how to ride and escape are the two most complicated aspects to teach as a coach and to learn as a wrestler. Those routines require much time and work and it's hard. I can fully understand why many people would like to see all wrestling transition to freestyle. In my opinion, top and bottom mastery is what separates great wrestlers from good wrestlers, especially if they are evenly matched on their feet.  Quite frankly, as much as I love wrestling, I have to admit that it is boring for me to watch three boring periods starting in neutral only to suffer through a drawn-out overtime where the match usually gets decided from top or bottom anyway. Overtime should not go past the second period.  It should be a true sudden death.  One minute first period, and if no one scores, flip the disc and give that anklet his choice, top or bottom.  Escape wins or ride out wins. If the coaches and wrestlers have been diligent in the pursuit of learning the top/bottom disciplines, the coin toss would be irrelevant because he is well trained in either position.  

 

If they are even on their feet, then the game comes down to who is better in the top and bottom position.  To me, giving the bottom guy a free up because he is inept is comparable to telling John Smith that he can't shoot a low singles in a match because his opponents are not good at stopping it or countering it...

 

 

 

This would never help in a million years!   Way back they did not let the top guy ride parallel and hold only legs and ankles etc. etc.  Both guys should be trying to improve their position and that means one trying to get an escape or reversal and one trying to turn.  The top guys don't work for points now, they just cling to the bottom guy watching the clock run. In most matches the bottom guy is getting up and the top guy pushes them off the mat or drops to a leg to work back up to cover (hover) some more.   There is nothing more boring than watching mat wrestling where nothing really happens and that is what this thought would bring more of.  

Edited by BLT

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While the video of the Gizoni works, there are a few differences that were taught at OU when I was there that are in my opinion better.

1. Once the top man's arm is over the bottom man's grasp the bicep of his arm and pull it tight to your chest.

2. Don't throw your arm over like a hook shot, instead just roll over to your opposite shoulder.

3. By grasping the bicep and keeping it, when you come out from under the opponent you are already in position to chop the opponent's near arm to break him down.

 

One reason that you don't see as many wrestlers getting reversed with a Gizoni is the top starting position was changed a few years ago. We would line up with only one knee behind the back line of the bottom referee's position. Now you can't line up past the bottom man's knee. This has forced the top man back by 1 foot, unless you use the method I came up with. Line up the your near knee next to the bottom man's near knee, then place your far leg foot on the same line. If your far knee was on the mat then you'd be in the position we wanted you in for using the Spiral Ride. Watch Austin Marsden OSU's 285 he actually does a Spiral Ride correctly.

 

It's amazing that you know so much more about wrestling than D1 All-Americans. You really shouldn't waste your talent on forums. 

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BLT, I think you meant "way back they DID let parallel riding and ankle holding." Now you can't, you have to move your pressure up to a half or claw or some other facade. Ankles are verboten.

Edited by Cooch1

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BLT, I think you meant "way back they DID let parallel riding and ankle holding." Now you can't, you have to move your pressure up to a half or claw or some other facade. Ankles are verboten.

I see parallel riding all the time now and counting to 4 and letting go for a second and then counting again is still ankle riding.  I agree the claw and all that other crap is just as much stalling.

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BigApple arguably knows more about the "old" stuff that works ...as do I. But with our spinal stenosis and bad knees this forum is all we got. Most of all he's not sarcastic and tells the truth even if he leans toward the good old Norman days.

 

The trend is now away from mat wrestling and technique from the bottom, probably due to F-S and the almighty cure all stand up and tear away the hands. The switch and side roll are passé but I can especially see an awful lot of potential side rolls. Dale Bahr was the King. You couldn't stop it if you wanted to or knew it was coming. It's also a great escape if not a reversal and NF. 

 

Opportunities galore being squandered for the sake of lock step conformity.

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Thanks Cooch1. i've always been a volunteer coach wherever I lived or worked since I left Norman in 1974. When I was working with a 2nd year wrestler in HS, he asked me if I'd ever had a bad coach. I said the worst coach I ever had was my HS coach he was 3rd in the NCAAs, the rest are in the Hall of Fame. I learned most of what I know from Stan Abel, Tommy Evans and Port Robertson, i've just been trying to "psy it forward" since then to those who weren't as fortunate to have them as mentors.

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BLT, I agree with your last post but you did say in the second to last post " way back." I'm a way backer and I did ride parallel, drop low and figure 4 and grab ankles continuously til the cows came home. I'd be DQed today. They did allow it continuously way back. Your words were "they didn't let."

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This would never help in a million years!   Way back they did not let the top guy ride parallel and hold only legs and ankles etc. etc.  Both guys should be trying to improve their position and that means one trying to get an escape or reversal and one trying to turn.  The top guys don't work for points now, they just cling to the bottom guy watching the clock run. In most matches the bottom guy is getting up and the top guy pushes them off the mat or drops to a leg to work back up to cover (hover) some more.   There is nothing more boring than watching mat wrestling where nothing really happens and that is what this thought would bring more of.  

 

Or, if you look back in this thread and the reason it was started;  

 

There is nothing more boring than 2 guys on their feet in neutral doing absolutely nothing but tie up and push which is exactly what you're wanting to see more.  I don't know where it's coming from that neutral wrestling is more exciting as every other thread on here is complaining about stalling in neutral. 

 

Mat wrestling is a big part of folkstyle and should always be included.  If you want to wrestle strictly in neutral, then go to freestyle as they have virtually eliminated par terre wrestling.  

 

A guy that isn't a great athlete can make up for that by being good on the mat.  It takes some real athletic ability to be able to consistently get TDs at the top level but for the average athlete (at this level), mat wrestling can be an equalizer.  A hard, tough ride can tire out that great athlete and get a point and sometimes break him.  Being able to get off bottom is another point.   That goes along with the theme - Wrestling is for Every Body.  Now obviously guys that are pretty good in both positions are really going to excel.     

 

Mat wrestling and ride time also adds a little bit of strategy to the matches.  Tie match going into 3rd period, wrestling against a very good top guy.  Go down and try to get the escape for the win and take the chance of not getting out or getting turned and losing or go neutral?  

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There's a down side to everything. What I noticed, and I was originally against pushout, is the wrestlers actually circle in without being told. Refs gotta love this plus the clear cut objectivity of the circle and oob. I think it's only a matter of time before we see the oob as punishing during neutral.

 

NCAA is currently doing its best to fight the transition to f-style and hang on to tradition; ironically, stalling is a big part of that tradition. With the existential threat hanging over our heads, something will have to give. Butts in seats = action!

 

"You can't sell garbage to the public." (Dr. Dale O. Thomas, Oregon State University)

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The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a pushout rule and a 3 pt td (so a td and escape is still worth more). Also devalues the riding time point a little bit which is great .

 

I would also like then to call a takedown more quickly when guys are on their back and to stand up guys in the ground position, but those are pretty big changes.

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I agree that stalling should called more aggressively in some situations. However I am not in favor of any amounts of time factoring in to the decision. An official who does the BIG10 tournament should be savy, experienced, what ever you want to call it to recognize stalling and have the balls to do so. Take the match between Tsirtsis and Sorenson for example, boring match to some, not much offense. At least Tsirtsis attempted to score, boots scoots, shots (a few) head snaps. Sorenson didn't attempt anything. The ref should have dinged him early in the match. Truthfully though no ones wants the Iowa staff breathing all over their knuckles so nothing gets called. Shameful!

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The more I think about it, the concept of NO riding time point unless you have NF points makes sense for at least 2 reasons. 1) It's easy to enforce and 2) puts pressure on the top guy to put up or shut up and stop all the fake halfs. Actually that's 3 reasons. Anyone care to add more?

 

Making half nelsons Real --and reducing gaming the system --will only help make people want to watch. Everyone knows when somebody is faking. This would be one more positive step in the right direction. Riding time becomes much more important, consistent and justifiable with the NF requirement, exactly like the superior tech fall, NF requirement for the extra point.

 

This thread is about stopping stalling isn't it? And really going for the pin / turn is the goal is it not?

 

I forgot to mention that this would also allow NCAA wrestling to move AHEAD of the high school rule that doesn't keep riding time. College wrestling can keep its traditional identity with mat wrestling and incentivize the pin. Our cake and eat it too.

Edited by Cooch1

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 Sorenson didn't attempt anything. The ref should have dinged him early in the match. Truthfully though no ones wants the Iowa staff breathing all over their knuckles so nothing gets called. Shameful!

 

Agreed Sorenson did NOTHING to win. But the problem isn't that refs aren't calling Iowa........... It's that they aren't calling ANYONE. maybe it's just that they are too close to see it (insert sarcasm) Appoint a person in the stands to call it........that would be better than what we have. At least you can see it from the stands.

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Agreed Sorenson did NOTHING to win. But the problem isn't that refs aren't calling Iowa........... It's that they aren't calling ANYONE. maybe it's just that they are too close to see it (insert sarcasm)it.... Appoint a person in the stands to call  it....that would be better than what we have. At least you can see it from the stands.

 

 

I can picture Wild Turkey and Vak signing up for duty at Iowa home duals. 

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