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gutfirst

refs who call stalling create more stalling

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with the exception of someone is blatantly fleeing contact or backing out of bounds stall calls create boring wrestling. i'd be happy to go into more details but i can sum it up like this-

 

let's say i'm down 1 on my feet. i have to basic strategies.

1. get after it and score or our lose by 3, or more, trying to score.

2. hedge by bets, "act" aggressive and wrestle for a stall call and send it into ot.

 

a ref who rewards the wrestler following strategy 2 is encouraging boring wrestling. when enough refs let the wrestlers figure it out themselves we'll see more exciting wrestling.

 

 

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with the exception of someone is blatantly fleeing contact or backing out of bounds stall calls create boring wrestling. i'd be happy to go into more details but i can sum it up like this-

 

let's say i'm down 1 on my feet. i have to basic strategies.

1. get after it and score or our lose by 3, or more, trying to score.

2. hedge by bets, "act" aggressive and wrestle for a stall call and send it into ot.

 

a ref who rewards the wrestler following strategy 2 is encouraging boring wrestling. when enough refs let the wrestlers figure it out themselves we'll see more exciting wrestling.

 

 

Well stated, gutfirst. 

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I may be in the minority but I love watching restarts.  Nothing more exciting than seeing a guy dive for the out of bounds circle and get there in less than 10 seconds.  "On the whistle gentlemen"....gives me chills just hearing it.

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#1 includes #2, #2 doesn't include #1.  #1 is the better way even if you lose; at least you tried. Never hope for help from the ref. You're a wrestler not a mind reader.

 

 

#1 is what Matt Brown tried against Kokesh. It did not work as Kokesh was too slick, but Brown gets respect for shooting/trying. #2 is what Evans does, and what the Iowa fans try to induce from the officiating. It is what the entire other thread is about, hence my snarky response in that thread.

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Gotta agree. It's frustrating to see a program like Iowa's regress to a lesser style instead of the proactive shooting I remember when Gable could get his point across. I have to think this is a top down thing. It begins with the head man. Co-champs and No champs. Never heard of that one.

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#1 is what Matt Brown tried against Kokesh. It did not work as Kokesh was too slick, but Brown gets respect for shooting/trying. #2 is what Evans does, and what the Iowa fans try to induce from the officiating. It is what the entire other thread is about, hence my snarky response in that thread.

good examples. half ass attempts at offense hoping for a stall call get rewarded enough to encourage wrestlers to hold back. boring wrestling is only 1 consequence.

 

the bigger picture is a lack of proficiencey. a wrestler can train to get the stall call or train to take his opponent down.

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with the exception of someone is blatantly fleeing contact or backing out of bounds stall calls create boring wrestling. i'd be happy to go into more details but i can sum it up like this-

 

let's say i'm down 1 on my feet. i have to basic strategies.

1. get after it and score or our lose by 3, or more, trying to score.

2. hedge by bets, "act" aggressive and wrestle for a stall call and send it into ot.

 

a ref who rewards the wrestler following strategy 2 is encouraging boring wrestling. when enough refs let the wrestlers figure it out themselves we'll see more exciting wrestling.

there is absolutely NOTHING that supports this theory.

How would we know if that were so.........since stalling is NOT being called now......... and look at nearly EVERYONE complaining about that FACT.

I personally know several former wrestlers that won't go to matches because of how prevalent stalling is........ saying how boring wrestling has become. We are pushing away the very fans we MUST keep. Folks are saying we need to grow our fan base, damn, we can't even keep the fans we have. Then there are the parents of former wrestlers.... once their kids are done wrestling you never see them at a match again. I hope we get things figured out.

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there is absolutely NOTHING that supports this theory.

How would we know if that were so.........since stalling is NOT being called now......... and look at nearly EVERYONE complaining about that FACT.

I personally know several former wrestlers that won't go to matches because of how prevalent stalling is........ saying how boring wrestling has become. We are pushing away the very fans we MUST keep. Folks are saying we need to grow our fan base, damn, we can't even keep the fans we have. Then there are the parents of former wrestlers.... once their kids are done wrestling you never see them at a match again. I hope we get things figured out.

and i would contend that there is something that supports the OP. like that people have been complaining about stalling for years, if not decades.

 

besides, who wants to see a match where the ref stalls both guys out? why not adjust the rules to properly incentivize wrestlers and take the judgement calls out of the refs hands? 

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It does seems like some, but definitely not most, college wrestlers look at getting a stalling call as a viable, and preferred, form of scoring points, rather than a result of legitimate scoring attempts.

 

 

Those that don't acknowledge this either aren't paying attention or have a stalling pt. agenda, because this has been going on for years. Too many slow plodding n on productive wrestlers are being rewarded for being slow plodding non productive wrestlers. They have elevated this to an art form, but the sport now sucks because of it. If you can get both hands on the other guy and you still don't have enough skill to take him down they shouldn't be bailing you out.  

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JH.....How does that support the OP?

refs incorrectly calling stalling will never be fixed. once you get more refs to call more stalls you will get good wrestlers adapting to game the system, as they will do with any change in rules or rules enforcement. if there was a way to fix how refs call stalling then it would have been figured out in the last 100 years. 

 

better to tweak rules to properly incentivize what you want to see then leave it up to ref's discretion. we're nearing the point where we'll need a new set of refs just to hand out style points.

 

please correct me if i've misinterpreted the OP. 

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Those that don't acknowledge this either aren't paying attention or have a stalling pt. agenda, because this has been going on for years. Too many slow plodding n on productive wrestlers are being rewarded for being slow plodding non productive wrestlers. They have elevated this to an art form, but the sport now sucks because of it. If you can get both hands on the other guy and you still don't have enough skill to take him down they shouldn't be bailing you out.  

"stalling pt. agenda"? is that hyperbole or do you think that is a real thing?

 

that's also kind of a harsh judgement of the sport in general. did it just start sucking this year or did it suck last year too?

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refs incorrectly calling stalling will never be fixed. once you get more refs to call more stalls you will get good wrestlers adapting to game the system, as they will do with any change in rules or rules enforcement. if there was a way to fix how refs call stalling then it would have been figured out in the last 100 years. 

 

better to tweak rules to properly incentivize what you want to see then leave it up to ref's discretion. we're nearing the point where we'll need a new set of refs just to hand out style points.

 

please correct me if i've misinterpreted the OP. 

by "adapting" do you mean they might actually start wrestling?

JH.... I have no problem with incentivizing> I am for WHATEVER it takes.

There seems to be a pervasive attitude among today's wrestlers that they are fine with "keeping it close" until the end and hoping that they then can "pull it out". That attitude is a problem.

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"stalling pt. agenda"? is that hyperbole or do you think that is a real thing?

 

that's also kind of a harsh judgement of the sport in general. did it just start sucking this year or did it suck last year too?

 

 

 

Wake me up when the 3rd period crowd at Carver Hawkeye isn't screaming STALLING! when their wrestler needs 1 pt. to tie it up. The fact that this screaming for the most part gets rewarded is the part that sucks. 

 

We need a system that leaves the refs out of it as much as possible, not in it as much as possible. If your guy needs a point he should go out on the mat and get it for himself and not have the crowd beg the official for it. 

Edited by TBar1977

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ak, just ask a wrestler if he is getting after 100% or holding back a little to get the stall call down by 1 30 seconds left? then ask him how he would wrestle if he new there was no chance at getting a stall call.

 

refs need to comumincate better with the coaches, athletes and each other. once everyone is on the same page we'll see more exciting wrestling.

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What would be wrong with trying to create rules that create more action? I think more stall calls creates more action.  

 

No one scores in the first period = double stall, you get pushed out of bounds = stall call, you stall = stall call ...

 

the problem isn't how 3rd period stall calls are being awarded currently it is that 1st and 2nd period ones are a rarity no matter how bad the guy is stalling.  

 

I remember so many times in the 80s & 90s when guys would get called for stalling early & it was just what they needed to open up and attack the rest of the match. 

 

Example from Big Tens: Dzewia gets called early against Dardaines and he attacks the rest of the match. 

 

This is not an Iowa fan wanting more stall calls going against the other team. This is a wrestling fan wanting people that are stalling called for stalling. Even if it is an Iowa guy.  

Edited by OtisCampbell

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ak, just ask a wrestler if he is getting after 100% or holding back a little to get the stall call down by 1 30 seconds left? then ask him how he would wrestle if he new there was no chance at getting a stall call.

 

 

gut....... isn't that pretty much what we have happening now? No need to ask that question we have perfect examples nearly every match today.

I don't understand how "holding back" is going to get an opponent called for stalling.

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ak,

 

it's about kids trying to push the pace without committing to an attack 100%. wrestlers play the game to make a kid look like he's stalling hoping to get the call. 

 

all of us have seen it, most of us have coached it and some of us have done it.

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Wake me up when the 3rd period crowd at Carver Hawkeye isn't screaming STALLING! when their wrestler needs 1 pt. to tie it up. The fact that this screaming for the most part gets rewarded is the part that sucks. 

 

We need a system that leaves the refs out of it as much as possible, not in it as much as possible. If your guy needs a point he should go out on the mat and get it for himself and not have the crowd beg the official for it. 

well i agree with you here. except if i hated watching iowa as much as you do i would probably just stop watching iowa wrestling. seems like an easy fix. maybe take a break from reading message boards too. just a suggestion!

 

 

by "adapting" do you mean they might actually start wrestling?

JH.... I have no problem with incentivizing> I am for WHATEVER it takes.

There seems to be a pervasive attitude among today's wrestlers that they are fine with "keeping it close" until the end and hoping that they then can "pull it out". That attitude is a problem.

can't argue here either. 

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I was never a D1 wrestler, so I'd appreciate someone who was explaining the finer points of stalling from neutral.  I know Drake Houdashelt very well.  Because of that, I can say with 100% confidence that if the first period ends 0-0, Drake's opponent was stalling.  Guaranteed.  His collar tie/underhook set-ups generate his offense, but if his opponent clamps down on his elbow and head as hard as possible to prevent any movement or angles, is that stalling?  Drake is looking to score constantly, and I assume most of the best wrestlers are, so why so little scoring?  Are both guys really stalling, or is just one guy, or none?  Seems like a very nuanced situation to me that is very subjective for refs to call correctly and consistently.

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Gotta agree. It's frustrating to see a program like Iowa's regress to a lesser style instead of the proactive shooting I remember when Gable could get his point across. I have to think this is a top down thing. It begins with the head man. Co-champs and No champs. Never heard of that one.

Hey Vic, do you still have those 44's.  If that is a picture of you, then, you are one ugly chick.  (I didn't forget what you told me)

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