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N Garrett - so much love

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Lots of folks seem to be picking Garrett to both be in the finals and win it.  End of last year, I thought he'd be in the finals again but Delgado would thwart him  ... again.  But he had the buzz and folks were talking about how he'd be an awesome freestyler.

 

Now all of this year happens and I'm not sure why the confidence of getting into the finals.

 

Loss to Waters (1-3) -- Garrett never threatened that I recall.

Loss to Synon (admittedly up a weight class) (2-6)

Loss to Gilman (2-3)

 

If I recall, he lost to Waters at least 2x during the 2012-2013 season.  Did win at NCAAs though.

 

Waters seems to be the man at 125 this year.  Why are folks doubting him?  Where is the love?  What are folks seeing in Garrett that results in the strong predictions?

 

I am a Cornell fan -- I thought Garrett would beat all comers this year ... easy from my comfy chair to say.  Friggen other wrestlers had to actually show up and compete!  Ha!

 

 

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Garrett has had losses, and even wins where he did not look sharp, every season, but he does seem to step up his game just a bit come tournament time.  EIWA's this year was no different, he looked untouchable.

 

Let's see if it carries over this weekend!

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I am rooting for Garrett, too, but I wouldn't put much stock in EIWA results. Even in the finals he faced no one in the top 10.

I'm talking about how Garrett LOOKED, not the results per se; but that said, I've got Tarao finishing better than top 10, he's one of my early upset picks.

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A lot of people keep mentioning waters wrestling on his knees. I can understand the thought in that if a person has only seen a few of his matches and that is all they saw. However, if you have watched Waters wrestle much you would know that he does not wrestle on his knees nearly as much as people mention. That dynamic of his wrestling is over exaggerated. He may have done it against Garret more so because of Garret's explosiveness but anyone who thinks that is his primary position in is incorrect. He wrestles up on his feet much more. He did do it in the national duals a little but Gilman was generally dropping to a knee prior. Just FYI

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A lot of people keep mentioning waters wrestling on his knees. I can understand the thought in that if a person has only seen a few of his matches and that is all they saw. However, if you have watched Waters wrestle much you would know that he does not wrestle on his knees nearly as much as people mention. That dynamic of his wrestling is over exaggerated. He may have done it against Garret more so because of Garret's explosiveness but anyone who thinks that is his primary position in is incorrect. He wrestles up on his feet much more. He did do it in the national duals a little but Gilman was generally dropping to a knee prior. Just FYI

 

He does it a lot against the top guys but not nearly as much against guys he can crush. It's not illegal, it's good strategy, it works. I hate it but I don't begrudge him for it. He is after all undefeated and the #1 guy. I just think that if that's a big part of your strategy against guys like Garrett, he is a higher-risk pick as a champ. But there's nothing that wrong about what he's doing.

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Another thing I will be very interested in is how the referees will ref Waters wrestling on his knees in neutral.  To me this is the most blatant form of stalling and the least called.

Stalling?   What about it is stalling?    The kid from ASU who won a national title at 125 did it in every match without it ever being called as far as I can recall.    Where exactly is the stall in this stance.?

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It is simply my opinion.  I didn't like that Robles was able to do it either.  I understand why they allowed it, but it was a huge reason his disadvantage was minimized as much as it could be.

 

By going to a knee, you are "clamming up"  it is no different than balling up on bottom.  You are not making an attempt to engage or attack the other wrestler.  You are 100% saying the only way you can engage me is by coming to me, grabbing my arms and "locking up" as I am stretching my arms out, making it the only option. 

 

I am not saying it isn't a smart strategy against fast, leg attacking wrestlers.  If it isn't called as stalling it takes away your opponent's best offense.  Still, to me, it personifies stalling.

 

Also, I know Waters doesn't do it all the time, but you WILL see it a ton this weekend.  He will be wrestling the best his weight has to offer.  His weakest position(and he is still very solid) is neutral.  If he can avoid being taken down, and we know he knows this, he will be very hard to beat.  Wrestling from his knees while not being in some form of a "tie up" is his best way to minimize risk.

 

In the end, I 100% believe it is stalling.  So far, the refs have not.  That is why I am interested to see if they do come the Tournament.

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If I back straight up 3 to 4 steps but then shoot, I am still stalling as defined in the rule book.  Creating a position that, in and of itself, avoids contact is stalling even if you use it to bring your opponent to you.  You are supposed to be creating offense or trying to initiate contact in the neutral position.  Moving away from your opponent or creating a position that is solely defensive is stalling.

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Look at it this way:

 

I go to my knee or knees.  My opponent decides to just stand three feet or so away.  I then crawl towards him.  He circles.  Am I allowed to keep crawling towards him until I can get him to tie up?

 

Why should the opposing wrestler do ANYTHING if I am down on my knees while not in contact with him?

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tigerfan9311,

 

The guy who initiated the situation in the first place.  Going to a knee, in no way, can be defined as initiating offense or trying to create contact.  You may be dictating the type of contact necessary but you are NOT initiating it.

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Stalling? What is stalling? I hardly ever see it called. Lighter guys go to their knees - and the other tactics descriped here. Middle/bigger guys do a square stance with huge legs and heavy hips, take it to the edge and do a lot of hand fighting in the interim. Heavyweights don't dare to shoot and they dance a lot. Any legitimate scoring action goes to the edge.

 

These are the tactics with some variety of course.

 

Other positions...... On top heavy ride, legs, or one so-so attempt at a turn every couple minutes = no stall. On bottom attempt an escape and don't belly down = no stall.  

 

Now it takes a lot of skill to do all of this, but there isn't much stalling called ever, and not much is going on.

 

When I watch the NCAA's this weekend (and I will 'watch') a ton of it, I will also be grading papers and getting other stuff done, peaking up here and there, because usually I can tell at a glance if anything is happening. There are exceptions of course, and occasionally I miss something cool, but this is the rule, and WAY more often than not I don't miss much. 

Edited by sgallan

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tigerfan9311,

 

The guy who initiated the situation in the first place.  Going to a knee, in no way, can be defined as initiating offense or trying to create contact.  You may be dictating the type of contact necessary but you are NOT initiating it.

I see it as just another evolution of the sport.  Guys used to stand practically straight up, bending at the waist slightly.  Over the years the typical stance has gotten lower and lower.  If Waters and others can effectively create offense and defend themselves from attack while on their knees, that is just the next logical step.  How low can you go?  Watch Joey Lavallee.  His stance is lower than Waters while on his knee, but he's just squating to where his butt is practically touching the mat.  Seems to me if the rules allow the other wrestler to attack your legs, defending your legs from attack is a basic technique that will evolve over time.  Is any type of defense at all always stalling?  That seems ridiculous.

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Defense is a response to offense.  Being defensive prior to offense is stalling..............

Not true.  Should wrestlers be required to stand straight up with their arms over their head?  The stance is a form of defense that limits your vulnerability to attack while simultaneously allowing you to initiate offense.  What is the appropriate balance of those two concepts?

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In NO WAY does going to a knee from neutral allow you to initiate offense.  It is strictly a defensive position that requires the opposing wrestler to come to you to engage contact.  Also, crawling to your opponent with your arms stretched out is hard to watch.

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In NO WAY does going to a knee from neutral allow you to initiate offense.  It is strictly a defensive position that requires the opposing wrestler to come to you to engage contact.  Also, crawling to your opponent with your arms stretched out is hard to watch.

It does not PREVENT offense.  Waters has a lot of takedowns, and not off counters.  His Russian tie to a go behind is a thing of beauty.  Does keeping your elbows tucked tightly against your body necessarily initiate offense?  No, but it doesn't prevent one from initiating offense, either.

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