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In NO WAY does going to a knee from neutral allow you to initiate offense.  It is strictly a defensive position that requires the opposing wrestler to come to you to engage contact.  Also, crawling to your opponent with your arms stretched out is hard to watch.

 

 

Waters takes people down from his knees all the time.  Watch the ankle pick on McDonough and explain to me how being on a knee is purely defensive.  Here's another in the first period on Peters this year.  He's not stalling, he's using that position to get to an attack situation that favors him.  If his opponent can't figure out how to score on him, why is that stalling on Waters? Outside of Garrett and Gilman, I'm also pretty sure Waters' has had a takedown in the first period against every top 10 wrestler he's faced this year.  And those two haven't exactly been explosive scoring machines when they wrestled other top guys either. 

 

Working from the knees isn't that easy and if it was, I'm sure you'd see more doing it.  Waters certainly isn't using it as a stall tactic IMO.

Edited by XiXiTiger

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 If his opponent can't figure out how to score on him, why is that stalling on Waters? 

 

That is terrible logic. If I turtle up on bottom and hide my arms under my chest to not get turned and my opponent can't figure out how to score on me then should I not be called for stalling since it's not my fault my opponent can't figure out how to score?

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So going to a knee is a movement that initiates contact or offense?  Absolutely not!  It creates a position where he dictates the type of contact he wants.  But, again, it is the opposite of offense in and of itself.  He does score off of it, but that is because his opponents come to him. If his opponent doesn't come to him, what does he do?  Crawl towards him?  Are you telling me that is fine with you?  It is essentially the equivalent of Football's "prevent" defense.  You aren't going to score on me by shooting so I will make you come inside(run the ball) and play/wrestle towards my strengths.

 

 

Also, you don't see it very often because I believe many would be embarrassed by doing so.  The few guys you see doing it(Simmons or Beckman) have had problems defending against leg attacks, just like Waters, and used it as a way to force tie-ups.

Edited by MSU158

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I'm honestly surprised by your close-mindedness, MSU158.  Embarrassed?  Do you think Dick Fosbury was embarrassed because his high-jump technique was so different?  Waters does score, as shown, and thus it is not stalling.  Your argument sounds so pedantic.  "He won't let me shoot.  Boo hoo.  He's stallin...oops, just got ankle-picked to my azz!"

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If I back straight up 3 to 4 steps but then shoot, I am still stalling as defined in the rule book.  Creating a position that, in and of itself, avoids contact is stalling even if you use it to bring your opponent to you.  You are supposed to be creating offense or trying to initiate contact in the neutral position.  Moving away from your opponent or creating a position that is solely defensive is stalling.

 

I don't think the rules support your position that backing up 3 to 4 steps and then shooting is stalling at all - just the opposite in fact.  Here's the verbatim quote from the rule book pertaining to that type of situation:

 

Stalling in the neutral position is defined as follows:
5.9.2.1 Continually backing away from the opponent without creating offensive action.
Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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The style isn't about trying to score.  That is my whole point.  It is solely about stopping the opponent from scoring.  To me that is stalling.  He knows how to work off that position, but the position itself is what I have an issue with.

 

tigerfan9311,

 

Are you telling me it is an aggressive, offensive minded position?  I am not close-minded at all.  You are essentially making yourself the smallest target possible and forcing your opponent to engage your upper body only.  If they don't, you have basically created an ugly, and quite boring, situation in which little to no offensive attempts can be inititiated and you make a bunch of half hearted fakes until your opponent gets frustrate and walks into something.  To me that is stalling, boring and ugly wrestling.  Still if he wins it all by doing so I will give him 100% credit for finding what works best for him under the current system.

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Hurricanewrestling,

 

 

Now that is significantly open to interpretation.  While you are consistently backing away you are NOT creating offense.  Your offense is created AFTER you stop backing away and it wouldn't even be possible if your opponent doesn't follow you closely enough for you to stop and shoot.

Edited by MSU158

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Because stalking your opponent encourages full engagement.  Crawling towards your opponent says there will be no offense until we tie-up.

 

 

 

Edited to add:  Unless your opponent is dumb enough or frustrated enough to just leave his legs available for attack.

 

 

 

Also, I am not saying Waters isn't using a very smart strategy.  As long as it isn't called stalling, he is using what best fits him, minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his strengths.

Edited by MSU158

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That is terrible logic. If I turtle up on bottom and hide my arms under my chest to not get turned and my opponent can't figure out how to score on me then should I not be called for stalling since it's not my fault my opponent can't figure out how to score?

 

It would be terrible logic if I was talking about scenarios like the one you painted, but I was quite obviously talking about Waters wrestling from his knees.  He attacks and scores points from there, so it is not stalling.  It's up to his opponent to figure out a way to score against him.   

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I don't care who is doing it, it is less entertaining than watching Evans or Brown ride the ankle for 2 minutes.  Everyone complains about lack of offense or how boring the current Folkstyle version is.  Watching a wrestler go down to his knees while not in contact with his opponent makes me CRINGE.

Edited by MSU158

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In NO WAY does going to a knee from neutral allow you to initiate offense.  It is strictly a defensive position that requires the opposing wrestler to come to you to engage contact.  Also, crawling to your opponent with your arms stretched out is hard to watch.

Tell that to Robles.  

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Are you idiots still whining that a man with one leg won the title? Did you expect him to stand straight up? Instead, criticize the opponents for not being fast enough to get around him!

That certainly wasn't my point.  My point was that he generated plenty of offense from a knee.  I love the guy.  

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You may be right but he didn't seem tired to me. Not breathing heavy at all.

When you cut that much, it's not the breathing as much as loss of power and strength. He couldn't move from bottom. No explosiveness from shots. Took few shots. He looked like a totally different wrestler. This has been a new problem this year, which is the first year he had issues with weight. He even missed weight for a big deal vs Mizzou.

 

I am convinced this is a big part of the problem. He is huge for 125. I saw him over the summer and was surprised by how big and lean he was.

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Hurricanewrestling,

 

 

Now that is significantly open to interpretation.  While you are consistently backing away you are NOT creating offense.  Your offense is created AFTER you stop backing away and it wouldn't even be possible if your opponent doesn't follow you closely enough for you to stop and shoot.

 

It may be open to some interpretation, but it's not open to your interpretation.   By your logic, anytime someone consistently backs away they are not creating offense and are, therefore. stalling.   But the rule clearly states that its only stalling from neutral when there is "continually backing away from the opponent without creating offensive action."  Therefore, as long as a wrestler's retreating is interspersed with offensive action, it's not stalling.  And often such backing away is just a way for a guy to set up his own offense (not unlike bobbing and weaving in boxing).  

 

Now, we can quibble about how much backing up a wrestler can do before shooting, but that's another issue altogether (and is governed by the ref's judgement).  My point is that the rules definitely allow continual backing away, as long as there is also offensive action being created during the process.  For example, you can dart in and out while giving up ground, as long as you're using it as a means to get to your offensive shots.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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When you cut that much, it's not the breathing as much as loss of power and strength. He couldn't move from bottom. No explosiveness from shots. Took few shots. He looked like a totally different wrestler. This has been a new problem this year, which is the first year he had issues with weight. He even missed weight for a big deal vs Mizzou.

 

I am convinced this is a big part of the problem. He is huge for 125. I saw him over the summer and was surprised by how big and lean he was.

 

I agree, and missing weight once this year says it all for me. He is pretty big for the weight. BUT, he looked 'business as usual' at the beginning of the year, horsing dudes, exploding, so there could be an injury as well. Could just be the grind of the season.

 

If he bulks up and goes up to 133 next year, he will be a force. As good as he was at 125, when Travis Lee went to 133 he added some big-time explosion with the added 8 lbs, I see the same thing happening for Garrett. 

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It also helps him add the strength he will need for freestyle, after college. Plus, it makes way for Macri for Cornell at 125, who has looked very competitive in his greyshirt campaign. Grey could take a year off and heal properly, or do battle with a whole host of talent for 141.

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