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wrestlingphish

the disappointment of mayes

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Missouri's 141 pounder got beat by a kid he had beaten twice this year. This one match is clearly an indicative of destructive coaching behavior. Is Brian Smith running these kids into the ground? How will they ever recover after losing a favored match? Should Mayes commit Seppuku?

Edited by wrestlingphish

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I take that back Phish maybe you're onto something. Ben Askren is obviously a product of a destructive environment - that guys is a jerk!!!

 

I'm being sarcastic of course. The rest of the MO roster is having a great tournament, including an undefeated Waters. Your post is invalid, and on top of that, RUDE.

 

 

Head coaches are too busy to be in a position to share their spoils of wrestling like many would assume. Smith might not know the game as well as you like, but it is the coaches job to build a system that works, though assistant coaches and third parties, or by whatever means. What Smith is doing is obviously working. He is doing his job if you ask me. Good job Smith. My only critique of him would be to speak with more authority during interviews. Say it wit yo chest!!!!

 

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I wouldn't say Eblen is having a great tournament.  Nor Synon.  Nor Mayes.  Nor Lavallee.  Nor Mellon.  Bottom line, every team has under and overperformers (and regular performers).  The only one from Iowa that was truly shocking, if we take into account their careers, is Bobby Telford.  I was drawn in by Dziewa's Big 10 tournament, but that first match was more indicative of the kind of stuff he's, sadly, done throughout his career.  Moore is injured and Kelly is who he is: a very limited wrestler holding down a spot in the line up.

Edited by VakAttack

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How drunk are you right now, phish? Lots of hate threads directed at MO lol

Ha, not drunk at all. Man, everyone on here gets pretty thin skinned when you start individually calling out wrestlers who aren't from Iowa for under performing. Weird.

 

But seriously, I haven't looked at Mayes route on the back side but I bet his loss as a 3 seed has more impact on the team race than Telford.

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I think its too early to say.  Eblen and Mayes could still wrestle to their seeds, which were too high to begin with.  England is wrestling well, and Mellon looked much better against Coon than their first match.  Lavallee lost to a tough Brascetta, then won 9-0 over a fellow 4x Nevada champ that he was intimidated by in middle school.  Miklus has already beat Thomas, who was a top 8 guy all year, then dang near beat Brown.  I like his chances to AA at this point.  If Eblen and Mayes aren't still standing tomorrow, we can talk about underperforming.  

 

Not sure if we can catch tOSU or not, but if we put 3 in the finals and Eblen, Mayes, and Miklus fight back, I think we'll have our best finish ever.

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Every team has a wrestler or two perform below seed, and usually one or two above seed.

 

Why bother wrestling if this weren't true?

Well I personally have advocated for years that NCAA points should be awarded based on high school credentials and potential not actual results.

 

But yeah, every team does Scribe which is why NCAAs are so wild. I think if you would have parlayed Delgado, Peters, and Garrett all ending up on the backside (or out) of the 125 bracket after the 1st day you would have won BIG money.

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I think if you would have parlayed Delgado, Peters, and Garrett all ending up on the backside (or out) of the 125 bracket after the 1st day you would have won BIG money.

Peters 2 and Q is just unbelievable. This has been the craziest 1st day I remember in at least a couple of decades.

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I think its too early to say.  Eblen and Mayes could still wrestle to their seeds, which were too high to begin with.  England is wrestling well, and Mellon looked much better against Coon than their first match.  Lavallee lost to a tough Brascetta, then won 9-0 over a fellow 4x Nevada champ that he was intimidated by in middle school.  Miklus has already beat Thomas, who was a top 8 guy all year, then dang near beat Brown.  I like his chances to AA at this point.  If Eblen and Mayes aren't still standing tomorrow, we can talk about underperforming.  

 

Not sure if we can catch tOSU or not, but if we put 3 in the finals and Eblen, Mayes, and Miklus fight back, I think we'll have our best finish ever.

Agreed.  Eblen's first round loss hurt...bad.  And Mayes not advancing through the second round was bad as well, especially against a guy he's already beat this year.  I had Lavallee losing in round 1, and am glad that he pulled bonus in the 1st round of WB's.  I expected Mellon to lose to Coon, so nothing different there.  And Mr. England was a very pleasant surprise in round 1, so that helped.

 

The thing that aggravates me a bit is the lack of bonus points by our big 3, and one of the reasons that seeding properly is so important.  I watched J'Den's first round match, and it looked like he was just trying to save his energy for the next 4 matches, not trying to score a lot of points.  With about 30 seconds left, he started aggressively trying to get more takedowns for a major...why weren't you doing that the whole time?  This is what separates the team champs from the rest...just ask PSU.

 

The key, as you mentioned, is going to be for Eblen, Mayes and Miklus....and hopefully Lavallee and Mellon, to get some bonus on the back side.  We also really need the big 3 to push hard for bonus.  It will be very tough in the quarters and beyond, but that's the way we can win this thing.

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MO_Godfather, your make an excellent observation about bonus points and Penn State. This is what Cael Sanderson preaches and it is how they practice. I'm not sure if I can accurately describe this, but at Penn State Cael teaches that it is OK to take shots and fail in practice, as long as you are taking the shots. He really wants guys trying to get to the major, then trying for the tech fall. That philosophy and the results that come from it won us the championship last year. Some opposing fans think it was all Taylor and Ruth at Penn State, but I think they will find out next year that is simply not the case as a couple more guys will arrive that will try for bonus all the time, and get it much of the time. 

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MO_Godfather, your make an excellent observation about bonus points and Penn State. This is what Cael Sanderson preaches and it is how they practice. I'm not sure if I can accurately describe this, but at Penn State Cael teaches that it is OK to take shots and fail in practice, as long as you are taking the shots. He really wants guys trying to get to the major, then trying for the tech fall. That philosophy and the results that come from it won us the championship last year. Some opposing fans think it was all Taylor and Ruth at Penn State, but I think they will find out next year that is simply not the case as a couple more guys will arrive that will try for bonus all the time, and get it much of the time. 

Wow.....How does a guy respond to this post....

You are truly one of a kind TBar.

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Also interesting to note that Iowa, while wrestling the most boring and least aggressive style in the history of the sport, somehow managed to score 8 bonus point victories on the 1st day.

 

EDIT: Just realized that every single Iowa wrestler (besides Evans of course) who won a match scored bonus points in one of their matches.

Edited by wrestlingphish

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Wow.....How does a guy respond to this post....

You are truly one of a kind TBar.

 

 

Thiller, now I wrote that especially for you and Vak. lol. 

 

EDIT: btw, that stuff IS actually true. I know you hate reading this, but there are differences between Iowa Style and what cael has brought to Penn State. :-)

Edited by TBar1977

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Missouri fans--  Do you guys think weight had a bit to do with L. Mayes?  He is huge 141.  I know he missed weight once or twice this year.  I really think he was sucking way too much weight and to know he had to make 141 for 3 days in a row is tough.  I could see a loss early from him today.  I think he will be 149 or 157 next year.  

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Missouri fans--  Do you guys think weight had a bit to do with L. Mayes?  He is huge 141.  I know he missed weight once or twice this year.  I really think he was sucking way too much weight and to know he had to make 141 for 3 days in a row is tough.  I could see a loss early from him today.  I think he will be 149 or 157 next year.  

 

Bingo. Same as Garrett. The guys who get most impacted by huge cuts are the guys who are very explosive and athletic. Having to cut 10-15 lbs of water and then go a full 7 at NCAAs right after neutralizes your athletic edge. The best weight-cutters are guys like Alan Waters or AJ Schopp who wrestle a very stingy style that is often reliant on the mat. High octane guys don't do well with deep cuts.

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Missouri fans--  Do you guys think weight had a bit to do with L. Mayes?  He is huge 141.  I know he missed weight once or twice this year.  I really think he was sucking way too much weight and to know he had to make 141 for 3 days in a row is tough.  I could see a loss early from him today.  I think he will be 149 or 157 next year.  

wrestlingnerd is absolutely right.  The explosive guys are the ones that get killed the most by the weight cuts.

 

To your point, I think Mayes was definitely killed by the cut.  I would have loved to see him at 149 and Houdashelt at 157 this year, and Le'Roy Barnes could have been plugged in at 141 (NJCAA champ).  But that's neither here nor there at this point.  Next year, I assume that's the plan (Mayes at 149 or 157).

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Mayes is huge.  He wrestled Tsirtsis last summer and he looked 10lbs heavier than Tsirtsis.  Agree the weight cut does kill guys more like Mayes.  If Houdashelt makes the finals he might be weighing in at match time around 165.  He is also big for the weight.

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How is it that every time a team or wrestler has a bad round people start talking about implosion.  There are so many dynamics that go into the biggest tournament at any level.  Weather it be college, high school, the worlds, or the olympics.  First off, technology is a huge factor.  The top "favored" probably have a little more disadvantage simply because everyone is preparing for them and they have to prepare for everyone.  It probably isn't a huge difference but it is an inch.  Then you have anxiety, 3 days versus 1-2 days, and so on.  All little things, but like Cael Sanderson says "inches add up". 

 

It also isn't like almost all of these guys in the tournament getting beat haven't been beat throughout the year, and many having a "bad match" for whatever reason.  Maybe a technical error, injury, or simply an off day.  The difference is during the season the impact of the loss isn't as great because there is another match down the road to improve on.  Then take into account it is the only tournament where the 33 best guys in the country are in the same place.  That means everyone is good.  Whether it is Vegas, the Midlands, or the Scuffle the top guys have matches that don't include some of the top D-1 matches.  So if they are off if doesn't show as much.  

 

As for Mayes and Missouri the fact that the losses are "destructive coaching" is just ludicrous.  First, it is only one of their matches.  Second, every team will have matches they lose they "should have won".  Eblens, was a surprise, but lets not forget he also had 5 loses coming into the tournament so it isn't like he was unbeatable.  Yes that is an upset, but what I would really consider the only one.  Synon lost in SV to Sabatello who is no slouch.  I could be wrong but I think he lost to him earlier in the year too.   Mayes lost to Heil, from OSU.  I have always said that John Smith is the BEST coach in the country at preparing his guys for this tournament.  Before season got going I predicted OSU to finish top for, despite the hype around everyone else, simply for that reason.  Nobody prepared his guys for this tournament better than John Smith.  If it weren't for Kindig being hurt they would possibly be in first right now.  So the last team you want to wrestle at the nationals when you are 2-0 is someone from OSU.  So while Mayes may have been favored and had two wins over Heil, it wasn't out of the realm that he could lose that match in this tournament.  I think it is less of a reflection on Mayes, and more so on Heil's preparation for that match.  Everyone else for Missouri has wrestled as well or better than expected.  Lavalee could easily be done by now, and England could have been at the end of the first round.  They are wrestling well. Miklus looks very good and so does Mellon.  Again Eblen was a shock, but so was Matt Pell's first round loss when he came back through and got the award for most pins in the least time in route to Missouri's third place finish a few years ago.  Missouri is by no means even close to being out of it.  They are like 5 points behind.  

 

In my opinion Ohio State, despite being in first right now, has a tough hill to climb.  They have 5 in the quarters, and may end up with 4 in the semi's, but very realistically could only have 1 in the finals.  Logie, will win it, but Jordan had to wrestle Deringer in the semi's.  Then Tomasello will have to beat waters, and Snyder has to get trough Shiller and Cox.  If Ohio State is going to win it they will have to get to the finals at 125 and 197.  I think they could fall to 4th or 5th if they lose all of those semi matches.  Missouri has Houdashelt who has a decent shot to make the finals, but I think is the least likely of the three.  Iowa is by no means out of it and will be right there, but the scary team right now is OSU.  I think they get Deringer and Kilmara into the finals.  Kilmara is sitting nice the way that side played out.  If Heil, Crutchmer, and Mardsen make the semi's OSU will be in it big time.  Mardsen and Cruthmer are very possible.  

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