Did Ian Miller win?

[gimpeltf 2,042]

The video review rule says it's to be used to confirm or reverse a call or non call. There's a clause stating that the referee can use the review to check the scoring. And there's another longer standing rule 3.11.2 saying that scorer type errors not resolved by the official before the wrestlers leave the area can be handled by the tournament committee.

[headshuck 2,586]

Make the semifinals a round robin between Ness, Realbuto, and Miller.

What? Ness should have to beat both of them now? Edited March 20, 2015 by headshuck

[Aztec 20]

 

The following is from the Kent St article, "Although Kent State coaches verbally questioned the score and got a response from the official after the third period, the NCAA contends that a challenge flag needed to be raised."

 

Maybe this is a stupid question, but does the rulebook say that the challenge flag has to be raised? Should the coaches have known that by not raising the flag they were not technically making a challenge?

[GoNotQuietly 1,168]

What? Ness should have to beat both of them now?

 

Sure, makes as much sense as most of the other solutions, and I would love to see it.  I'm just being hyperbolic to illustrate that there is no fair way to fix this, with re-wrestling the match being just the least terrible IMO.

[heelpick 116]

The ncaa has power and provisions to reverse this clusterfluck but they are punting. The scorers and officials should be removed from the tournament and banned.

[NJDan 1,058]

How is this bad call different from a routine bad call? 

 

Say wrestler A is winning 3-2 over wrestler B. B goes for a takedown in the lat 30 seconds. It looks like he got it. But the ref does not call the takedown. The match ends; A wins.

 

Looking back, everyone agrees that B had a takedown? Do they reverse the result? Of course not.

 

And had B been awarded the takedown, who is to say that A would not have tried harder and gotten an escape or a reversal?  

[TFBJR 464]

  That's a judgment call and open to interpretation.  This is a straight up math or, more aptly, keyboard issue.  No interpretation involved, just an obvious human error.  IMO. 

[OldGrappler 48]

NJDan,

 

It differs in that Realbuto was awarded what turned out to be the "tying" takedown, which can only have been a takedown if Miller had escaped.   If Miler never escaped, then Realbuto didn't have a tying takedown and Miller won.  If Miller did escape, then he still won, but the escape was either never signaled by the ref, or not recorded by the scorer.

 

I'm not impressed with the NCAAs handling of it, and I think labeling it a punt is probably the nicest thing that can be said about it.  My sense is that the committee isn't comfortable with their power to reverse the "apparent" outcome of a match, and were looking for some cover for not acting.  I can understand that feeling, but the outcome in this case doesn't seem right. 

[Glane18 73]

As a coach I always make sure the score is correct and I absolutely hate it when parents are yelling about the score not being correct.  I think I should second guess myself now and listen to them.  This is such a sad situation.  There's no way to tell if Koll knew what was really happening.  If he did and he let it slide, that's not very honest or sportsmanlike.  If he trusted the officials (which I would in an NCAA quarterfinal match), then he shouldn't have any criticism towards him.  I heard the Kent State coaches were warned for this situation as well.  This is a MAJOR mess up from the NCAA and for our sport.  I feel horrible for Miller. 

[nom 1,179]

Well said in the past 2 posts-- it won't feel right in any answer.  Both sides have arguments here.  All around very crappy situation.  

 

I frankly do like the rewrestle option --- sets some amazing precedence though and I can see folks that manage these things sticking strictly to the rule book.  If not, they open themselves up to liabilities (yes, lawsuits -- sad to say).  I'm sure they are conditioned to refer to the rulebook and not disregard what it says without some very high level cover.

Edited March 20, 2015 by nom

[TFBJR 464]

Just to be crystal clear - I never meant to intimate that Koll knew and kept quiet.  I just feel he should have gone the extra mile and been an exemplar.   The older you get, the less chances you have to do something heroic.

 

  Oh well, on to the semis.   

[jammen 336]

The video review rule says it's to be used to confirm or reverse a call or non call. There's a clause stating that the referee can use the review to check the scoring. And there's another longer standing rule 3.11.2 saying that scorer type errors not resolved by the official before the wrestlers leave the area can be handled by the tournament committee.

Exactly.  The referee is responsible for maintaining the correct score.  If the ref makes an error the committee can overturn the mistake.  This has nothing to do with video review.

[Voice_of_the_Quakers 127]

Exactly.  The referee is responsible for maintaining the correct score.  If the ref makes an error the committee can overturn the mistake.  This has nothing to do with video review.

 

That being said, if there are to be any consequences for this event, the officials working the Miller-Realbuto bout, and perhaps the table crew, should be asked to take the rest of the tournament off.

[tbert 563]

when this ref made an error - NCAA lays the blame on the KSU coaches. 

[BLT 86]

To me if they asked the refs if the score was right they should be obligated to check it out and do the right thing no matter if they waved a damn flag or not.  Those refs should be done with their referee careers.  Your not there to watch the match for entertainment.

[quanon 161]

I'm not impressed with the NCAAs handling of it, and I think labeling it a punt is probably the nicest thing that can be said about it.  My sense is that the committee isn't comfortable with their power to reverse the "apparent" outcome of a match, and were looking for some cover for not acting.  I can understand that feeling, but the outcome in this case doesn't seem right. 

 

Here's the rule:

 

3.11.2 Error by Timekeeper and/or Scorers. If there is an error on the part of the timekeeper and/or scorers, the error shall be corrected and the referee will inform the wrestlers, coaches and announcer of the correction. During a dual meet, correction shall be made by the referee before the start of a subsequent match. An error during the last match of a dual meet must be corrected before the referee has signed the scorebook.

For a tournament, the correction shall be made by the referee and shall take place before the contestants leave the mat area or the bout sheet leaves the scorer’s table. Any error not resolved by the referee shall be arbitrated by the tournament committee. 

[denger 339]

 

Here's the rule:

 

3.11.2 Error by Timekeeper and/or Scorers. If there is an error on the part of the timekeeper and/or scorers, the error shall be corrected and the referee will inform the wrestlers, coaches and announcer of the correction. During a dual meet, correction shall be made by the referee before the start of a subsequent match. An error during the last match of a dual meet must be corrected before the referee has signed the scorebook.

For a tournament, the correction shall be made by the referee and shall take place before the contestants leave the mat area or the bout sheet leaves the scorer’s table. Any error not resolved by the referee shall be arbitrated by the tournament committee. 

 

So, it's on the ref's, not the coaching staff. Then, since the ref's screwed it up it's on the committee. The committee is the one ultimately screwing over Miller. They are the ones we should hold accountable.

 

Dunno how to do that, though. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by denger

[denger 339]

Is there some kind of legal action that could take place? Like, make the NCAA lose money for being stubborn idiots?

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

To me if they asked the refs if the score was right they should be obligated to check it out and do the right thing no matter if they waved a damn flag or not.  Those refs should be done with their referee careers.  Your not there to watch the match for entertainment.

 

Good point, especially since refs have the authority to conduct a video review on their own initiative (i.e., not just in response to a coach's challenge).  From what's been reported, the Kent State staff did question the score (albeit not by the approved protocol), but were told by the ref that the score was correct.  

 

Insomuch as there were a lot of points and flurries in the last 30 seconds of regulation, I wonder why the ref seemingly dismissed Kent State's questioning the score so readily.  It's not like the ref's judgement was being challenged, rather it was just a request to make sure the score was recorded properly.  Seems like it would have been appropriate for the refs themselves to initiate a review under those circumstances.

Edited March 20, 2015 by HurricaneWrestling

[sgallan 592]

The ncaa has power and provisions to reverse this clusterfluck but they are punting. The scorers and officials should be removed from the tournament and banned.

 

I dunno about banned, everybody makes mistakes. Removing them from this tournament and seriously questioning their ability to get future calls to work the NCAA's would be an honest consideration. I am sure they likely feel terrible about this.

[heelpick 116]

If this were any other tournament or match, I would agree. Since the consequences of this mistake are so egregious, I feel a ban is indeed appropriate. Miller was robbed of a match that he legitimately won.

[denger 339]

I'd like to see one of two things from the NCAA. 

1. An official apology for the error preceding a reverse in the match. (preferred outcome)

2. An official apology for the error including an apology for promoting injustice in sports preceding a donation to all D1 schools to fund 1/10 of a wrestling scholarship for the next 5 years. 

 

I expect neither, and I don't think I'll do my part as a consumer to boycott the NCAA.

 

What makes it so bad is that it can be fixed. There is a system in place to correct it, and they're blowing it. 

[scrambler 43]

This falls solely on the coach. I was taught to not step off the mat if anything was in question. A challenge or protest cannot happen after the fact. He wasn't sure if the score was right, so he should have challenged. Instead he went with it and human error prevailed.

[denger 339]

This falls solely on the coach. I was taught to not step off the mat if anything was in question. A challenge or protest cannot happen after the fact. He wasn't sure if the score was right, so he should have challenged. Instead he went with it and human error prevailed.

Not if this is the rule.

 

Here's the rule:

 

3.11.2 Error by Timekeeper and/or Scorers. If there is an error on the part of the timekeeper and/or scorers, the error shall be corrected and the referee will inform the wrestlers, coaches and announcer of the correction. During a dual meet, correction shall be made by the referee before the start of a subsequent match. An error during the last match of a dual meet must be corrected before the referee has signed the scorebook.

 

For a tournament, the correction shall be made by the referee and shall take place before the contestants leave the mat area or the bout sheet leaves the scorer’s table. Any error not resolved by the referee shall be arbitrated by the tournament committee. 

[scrambler 43]

Protest has to be filled before leaving the mat.