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johndoe

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Was Miller allowed to take down Realbuto in OT? Yes, the refs missed a call. But the refs didn't give up 3 takedowns in a minute. Rule number 1 of sports, don't leave it in the hands of the officials. To be clear, the mistake didn't cost Miller the match. The mistake sent the match to OT. Getting taken down is what cost Miller the match.

 

Usually this would be the case, but not so this time. No matter how they ruled..... escape or no escape...... Dean won the match. That is what makes this unique from most anything I can remember.

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I definitely don't agree that the Cornell coaching staff is to blame in any way whatsoever.  I just thought the explanation by the "committee" was beyond weak.  Why do they exist if they can't fix mistakes?  

 

Miller has another year right?  I wish him the best.  

 

 

yes, I think next year is Miller's final year of eligibility.  stating the obvious here, but if Ian can find a way to stay healthy he would be my favorite to win it,   over Realbuto, Nolf when he comes off of RS, and yes, iMar.

Edited by gromit

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The Kent State coaching staff failed to keep track of the score and formally request that the scoring be reviewed. This isn't some deep moral issue. The Kent State coaches and the scoring table screwed up. The idea that Koll and Realbuto need to forfeit because of an error made by the other side and the scorekeepers is just silly. Good luck to Realbuto on his quest for a national title. 

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Terrible reffing happens all the time. Granted this was extra special and rather unique terrible reffing, but it is what it is. Freaking out on the athletes/coaches involved does no good. It's very easy to give away someone else's win. How many guys here would lobby for the officials to overturn his own match? Not many.

Sure it would be cool to see but shaming a guy for NOT doing it... That's like shaming someone who wins the lottery and doesn't give it all to charity.

 

Btw I saw this in a Canadian tournament once. A national team veteran was wrestling a teammate and losing. In the last second they penalized the young guy for stalling, giving the old guy the win. He shook his head, raised the young guys hand and put his medal around the young guys neck. Didn't change the official score though.

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I would certainly agree that the easiest thing to do for Cornell is to shrug their shoulders and get away with whatever they can. There is no debate on what is most expedient; the debate is what is right. I'm not sure why anyone thinks you would have to be drunk to hold people to ethical standards. Holding athletes and coaches to a standard serves a purpose - to change their behavior. The failure to do what you can and ought to do is known as a sin of omission in Christianity. There are various laws concerning crimes of omission. It isn't some revolutionary new idea in ethics. 

 

The lottery analogy is also terrible. Assuming one wins the lottery fairly, he is under no obligation to give away the money. If he uses his neighbor's ticket and wins the lottery, he does have a moral obligation - not to give the winnings away to a third party, but to give it to the person he stole it from. Would that be hard to do? Of course. That doesn't mean keeping the money is ethical. Societies get the culture they demand. If a society demands expediency over virtue, that's exactly what it will get. 

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I watched the match and didn't notice the score error. When Realbuto scored 2, i was wondering why he didn't press his chest into Miller as he would have easily had back points. Realbuto apparently knew he had tied up the score and it would go into OT. Had he known he needed another point to tie, or two win I'm sure his strategy would have been different. Whatever he chose to do might or might not have worked.

 

Alan Waters knew he needed points an hit a sommersault headchancer ala Ness, or in my day Schalles.

 

I know many will boo Realbuto, it wasn't his fault. He did what he needed to first tieup the match based on the scoreboard, then win the match. Last yesr he gave Dieringer all he wanted in the semis, until he hurt his knee, which more of Dieringer's doing than his.

 

You have to be lucky and good to win the NCAAs.

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'dont' leave it up to the officials.'

 

at this level...things are so close...this statement is asinine. aren't we all griping about stalling?

in the day and age of instant replay for ALL sports... this should have been fixed.

 

if it had been Ohio state? Iowa? or Cornell... it would have been fixed.

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How did Isaiah Martinez going from losing 3 straight to a high school Junior to going undefeated in NCAA competition over the course of a summer?

That was freestyle.  If I recall, NCAA wrestling is you know....folkstyle.

 

Check this link from Flo...IMar talks about the losses to Valencia and how that along with Perry lighting a fire under his arse made him change

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/252093-2015-NCAA-D1-Championships/video/764624-Isaiah-Martinez-Flipped-The-Switch#.VQ9KpGZ8ZU0

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Don't forget, in other sports, errors are not correctable after a certain time. The baseball appeal before the next pitch, basketball corrections before the end of the first dead ball after error, etc.

 

Horrible what happened to Miller, and yes it was easy to miss with all the chaos, but as the NCAA said, there was a vehicle in place to correct the situation, and there was. Kent State had a chance to correct this.

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The Kent State coaching staff failed to keep track of the score and formally request that the scoring be reviewed. This isn't some deep moral issue. The Kent State coaches and the scoring table screwed up. The idea that Koll and Realbuto need to forfeit because of an error made by the other side and the scorekeepers is just silly. Good luck to Realbuto on his quest for a national title. 

I agree.  Bad calls are made all the time by refs that directly decide the outcome of a match, and for which we can confirm with video evidence, per the current situation.  Should all of those matches be forfeited/rewrestled/etc.? This is really only slightly worse than that, especially given the fact that they proceeded to wrestle OT and it still wasn't challenged.  I can see why people are ticked off, but to say that any one individual or side is to blame for this is illogical at best.  This outcome was preceded by a chain/web of phenomena, just like when a ref makes a bad call that changes the course of a match.  That's part of the beauty of sports, barring a few things like popping + for steroids post-competition, after the competitors have left "the field" and the dust settles, the winner remains the winner.  This was not a steroids comparable situation worthy of a win being stripped away.  Again, only slightly worse than a ref's bad call deciding a match.     

Edited by Yellow_Medal

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Sorry for bringing this topic up again, but listened to FLO radio episode 22 last night, and I thought CP and Willie had an excellent conversation on the Miller-Realbuto match, as well as other "heart and soul" issues of wrestling. Could have been their best show yet (to be honest, only heard about 5 or 6 of them so far). Would have loved to been in on that conversation, especially when they discussed rules, spirit of the rules, offense, or lack of offense, etc. Maybe I'm a geek, but I loved that particular show.

 

Quick question, didn't really see the match, just some highlights, but did the ref ever put up his arm and award the escape point? (Apologize if this was discussed somewhere already.)

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The argument that Realbuto would have acted differently had he known he was behind doesn't make any sense to me at all. To me, his actions wouldn't change whether he was behind by one point or tied. If he was able to get back points, he would have done so. If points are there for the taking then why risk OT? Makes no sense at all. Is the argument that going for back points is riskier than going to a neutral position in OT?  I just don't see it.

 

I do the think the ethical thing to do would have been for Cornell to lobby for Miller to advance.  Whether they thought it would do any good is not the point.  They should have tried. Then Realbuto could have wrestled in the semis with a clear consciense when/if the efforts were not successful.  In my mind, it's very similar to a golfer who calls a penalty on himself that costs him a tournament.  So the argument that nobody would do such a thing is ridiculous - golfers do it all the time.  Are golfers more ethical than wrestlers?  I don't think so.

 

I was also interested in the ethical decisions in the 125 and 141 lb finals matches.  When the opponent is obviously injured and not taking a lung timeout there is nothing to prevent the uninjured wrestler from choosing the same position they were in before the injury - and therefore not benefitting from it.  I thought one of the 2 of them might do that. 

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