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USAWrestlingFan1985

Accountability for the NCAA /Referee's/Scorekeepers/Cornell

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I've been just an outsider looking in on the forums for a long time, but I feel very strongly about the NCAA sequence of events beginning from the aggregious mistake from the referee's/score table to the NCAA decision to let Damion Hahn be the spokesperson for their final decision.

 

1. Since when is a wrestler held accountable for a coach's action/inaction? For the NCAA to rule that the coach could've challenged the call, takes the match completely out of the wrestlers hand. Let's say for example in a match tonight that a coach storms out on the mat irrationally and gets penalized for misconduct. Does the wrestler get punished now as well as the team? It only seems fair to keep the wrestler accountable for the coach's actions in this case based upon the precedent set in the quarterfinals.

 

2. There have been rumors spreading that Kent State informally questioned the score while a referee dismissed it and Kent State dropped it to focus on overtime. I wasn't there so I don't know. But there hasn't been any comment or explanation from the NCAA regarding the issue.

 

3. Why was Damion Hahn the spokesman for this announcement? How was there not a formal means set in place to address the obvious questions that the committee faced when making this decision. It seemed like they made a decision, hid in the back after talking to coaches, then came back right before the next session and read from a piece of paper that essentially said "We're not allowing ourselves to make decisions in the gray area we established for ourselves."

 

4. I'm not going wish anyone ill for something like this, but I'm also not going to disregard Cornell's inaction to fix the situation. There was about 45 minutes between the notification of the error and the decision. Cornell had the opportunity to come forward and request a means to put their wrestler in the consolation rounds and award Miller the semifinal berth.

 

5. This is fundamental morals and ethics and if you disagree, play this scenario out and tell me what you would do. You're at a grocery store with your son. You have a lot on your mind and accidentally walk out not paying for a Gatorade in your hand. As you go to unlock your car, your son questions whether you paid for the drink. Do you tell him "No but it's too late now so let's go home?" Do you go back inside and pay for the drink?

 

There are a lot of people taking the easy approach and dismissing the discussion by saying something along the lines of, "This is just a really bad situation for both sides and you feel for both wrestlers." Why is it a bad situation for Cornell and Realbuto? They scored fewer points than their opponent and he had his hand raised. Unconsciously what the accouncers are saying is, "This is a bad situation for Cornell and Realbuto, because they know they lost and don't have the moral courage to make the situation right. They have to live with that forever and that's a bad decision to live with."

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The match wasn't over when the mistake was made.  With a correct score, Realbuto pushes for near fall.  As it was, he didn't. took it to OT and won.  What's next, we go back and hour later and determine that a 2 point nearfall should have been a 3 point NF and change the outcome?  This was clearly screwed up, but you can't go back 2 hours later after everyone is back at the hotel and change the score, simple as that. These kind of screw ups have to be dealt with on the spot, its a must.  It stings bad for Miller and KSU, but that's on his coaches and the refs.  They should have refused to leave the mat area until the issue was dealt with.  Personally, I would have rather seen them re-wrestle the match, and don't know why that's not an option (although I'm sure there is a simple answer).

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The match wasn't over when the mistake was made.  With a correct score, Realbuto pushes for near fall.  As it was, he didn't. took it to OT and won.  What's next, we go back and hour later and determine that a 2 point nearfall should have been a 3 point NF and change the outcome?  This was clearly screwed up, but you can't go back 2 hours later after everyone is back at the hotel and change the score, simple as that. These kind of screw ups have to be dealt with on the spot, its a must.  It stings bad for Miller and KSU, but that's on his coaches and the refs.  They should have refused to leave the mat area until the issue was dealt with.  Personally, I would have rather seen them re-wrestle the match, and don't know why that's not an option (although I'm sure there is a simple answer).

This is a specious argument. I just re-watched the match. Both wrestlers were watching the clock. Since the score was incorrect, Miller probably assumed he was going to OT. How do we know that he doesn't fight like the dickens to prevent any near fall? Also, if a near fall was right there for Realbuto, why not go for it? Why not end the match?

 

We need to simply focus on what happened, not what might have been. Miller won the match and got robbed. Thems the facts

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The match wasn't over when the mistake was made.  With a correct score, Realbuto pushes for near fall.  As it was, he didn't. took it to OT and won

 

 

I didn't see the match nor do I care who won but this is the stupidest excuse I have ever heard....no one would prefer to go to OT if they could win the match in regulation if it was as easy to get back points as some of you are claiming....

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tightwaist, agree it is all hypothetical and we can't know what would have happened but the argument is not specious ... an incorrect score, corrected after the match would have harmed Realbuto.  You can not disagree with that -- it is a fact.  

 

But, Miller would have been given the win if corrected at that time ... I agree.  Cornell fans, including me, would have been pissed about the score being wrong and Realbuto not having the right info to act appropriately.  But, it would be a loss.

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I didn't see the match nor do I care who won but this is the stupidest excuse I have ever heard....no one would prefer to go to OT if they could win the match in regulation if it was as easy to get back points as some of you are claiming....

You didn't see it and yet you say this .... wow.  We have a winner here.  See it ... Brian eased back and coasted assuming it was going to OT.  Took a few seconds and it seems like he said what the hell and then went for it and easily turned him.  This is a real thing ... 

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WHY IS THIS A CORNELL ISSUE.... THE KENT STATE COACHES SHOULD HAVE BEEN AWARE OF THE SCORE PLAIN AND SIMPLE. WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE RULES ARE IN PLACE TO FIX THIS AND KENT STATE DID NOT ACT

 

LEAVE CORNELL WRESTLERS AND COAHCES OUT OF THIS

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You didn't see it and yet you say this .... wow.  We have a winner here.  See it ... Brian eased back and coasted assuming it was going to OT.  Took a few seconds and it seems like he said what the hell and then went for it and easily turned him.  This is a real thing ... 

 

YTF would he ease up if he could win the match in regulation? Like I said it's a stupid excuse...

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4. I'm not going wish anyone ill for something like this, but I'm also not going to disregard Cornell's inaction to fix the situation. There was about 45 minutes between the notification of the error and the decision. Cornell had the opportunity to come forward and request a means to put their wrestler in the consolation rounds and award Miller the semifinal berth.

 

We all know that what happened was insane, but I disagree 100% that Cornell gets any say in the outcome of this call.

 

If for example a coach thinks the ref made a bad TD call on his own wrestler's behalf, he doesn't get to say, no we didn't actually get that TD.

Edited by madcat11

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3. Why was Damion Hahn the spokesman for this announcement? How was there not a formal means set in place to address the obvious questions that the committee faced when making this decision. It seemed like they made a decision, hid in the back after talking to coaches, then came back right before the next session and read from a piece of paper that essentially said "We're not allowing ourselves to make decisions in the gray area we established for ourselves."

 

Where did you see Damian Hahn making an announcement!?  Are you sure said explaination wasn't the one provided by the head of the NCAA Committee  (who really doesn't look much like Hahn, granted the hairstyle is similar but Hahn's ears should give him away)

 

I think you are off on some facts here...

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The fact is that a point that should have been added wasn't.  Period.


 


Regarding coaches, the KSU coaches have to own the fact that they had a responsibility to keep track of the score and shame on them for not doing their job.  When I coached, before we went into the corner each coach had a responsibility--one was to keep track of the score, the clock, riding time, whose choice it was, etc. (the mechanics of the bout); the other coach was to yell strategy, corrections, encouragement, etc.  Obviously, KSU didn't have this system in place and their man paid a price for it.  And then they didn't lodge a protest before leaving the mat.  Sorry, just not professional at all, and that's part of what they're paid to do.


 


Regarding Cornell, this is a tricky one.  Did Koll realize his man was the beneficiary of a point his opponent was fully entitled to?  Only Coach Koll knows that.  I have been in a situation at nationals (twice actually, and once in the finals) where an opponent was called for an illegal slam and we could have stayed down and taken the victory.  Not a good message, in my book.  We wrestled out both bouts and lost fair and square and i have no problem with the decision.  In Koll's case, he must live with what only he knows to be true.


 


Regarding the wrestlers, I place no blame on either and have great respect for both.  They did their jobs and it was a close bout, and the drama has taken away from that.  Life lesson learned--life is not always fair.  Good luck to Brian in the finals.


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The fact is that a point that should have been added wasn't.  Period.

 

Regarding coaches, the KSU coaches have to own the fact that they had a responsibility to keep track of the score and shame on them for not doing their job.  When I coached, before we went into the corner each coach had a responsibility--one was to keep track of the score, the clock, riding time, whose choice it was, etc. (the mechanics of the bout); the other coach was to yell strategy, corrections, encouragement, etc.  Obviously, KSU didn't have this system in place and their man paid a price for it.  And then they didn't lodge a protest before leaving the mat.  Sorry, just not professional at all, and that's part of what they're paid to do.

 

Regarding Cornell, this is a tricky one.  Did Koll realize his man was the beneficiary of a point his opponent was fully entitled to?  Only Coach Koll knows that.  I have been in a situation at nationals (twice actually, and once in the finals) where an opponent was called for an illegal slam and we could have stayed down and taken the victory.  Not a good message, in my book.  We wrestled out both bouts and lost fair and square and i have no problem with the decision.  In Koll's case, he must live with what only he knows to be true.

 

Regarding the wrestlers, I place no blame on either and have great respect for both.  They did their jobs and it was a close bout, and the drama has taken away from that.  Life lesson learned--life is not always fair.  Good luck to Brian in the finals.

 

 

Koll did make a statement on camera regarding the points. He second guessed himself thinking there must have been a point given for stalling or something, but said it moved very quickly to OT. He didn't reconsider until it had moved into committee.

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Scribe, we have to take Koll at his word, and I've always thought him to be a stand-up guy.  But "for stalling or something" is very shaky.  Even so, the KSU coaches had the responsibility to go to he head table at the mat and confer with the ref and scorer to make 100% sure the score was correct.  Like i said, lesson learned--for many people.

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To say the KSU coaches are to blame is the stupidest comment next to it being Cornell's fault. How many times in the tournament do you do you think the coaches questioned the score without a formal flag waving ceremony? A couple dozen? By these coward NCAA officials explanation, all of these informal protests should not have been honored? Gotta have a flag? BS!

They had criteria in place and they tucked their tails and ran.

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Scribe, we have to take Koll at his word, and I've always thought him to be a stand-up guy.  But "for stalling or something" is very shaky.  Even so, the KSU coaches had the responsibility to go to he head table at the mat and confer with the ref and scorer to make 100% sure the score was correct.  Like i said, lesson learned--for many people.

 

He second guessed himself on keeping count, and said it moved OT quickly. These coaches are surrounded by all the excitement on the floor, and moving to match to match to match. It'd be a real stretch to assign particular blame to Koll for this.

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Where's the accountability for Kent state. That's one of a handful of things the coach is responsible for when their kid is wrestling. How they missed that on that big of a stage is beyond me. a similar thing happened at the MO state tournament maybe 5 years ago (kid won in regulation but lost in ot). The coach then went to the table to check the score and it was reversed. Once you leave the mat it's done. don't blame cornell or realbuto. Blame Kent state and the table workers/officials.

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tightwaist, agree it is all hypothetical and we can't know what would have happened but the argument is not specious ... an incorrect score, corrected after the match would have harmed Realbuto.  You can not disagree with that -- it is a fact.  

 

But, Miller would have been given the win if corrected at that time ... I agree.  Cornell fans, including me, would have been pissed about the score being wrong and Realbuto not having the right info to act appropriately.  But, it would be a loss.

Exactly, the fact is that a correct could would have given Realbuto the information necessary to wrestle differently.   Maybe it would have changed a thing, but we don't know that.   I'm not sure what they'd do to fix this in the future, but they need to keep the rule that the issues/appeals need to be addressed BEFORE WRESTLERS LEAVE THE ARENA - we can't end up with Kolat-like situation, where scores are changed and reversed, etc. once everyone is long gone.

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He second guessed himself on keeping count, and said it moved OT quickly. These coaches are surrounded by all the excitement on the floor, and moving to match to match to match. It'd be a real stretch to assign particular blame to Koll for this.

I've been down on that floor.  And I never blamed Koll for anything; if he lost track of the score, I take him at his word.  For everyone is his corner to not know a point was not added is specious at best.

 

Regarding KSU coaches, to not know what the score is really isn't acceptable at the final meet of the year when your guy is a title contender.  This wasn't the wrestle-back at a beginning of the year open with a grad assistant and statistician in the corner while the head coach was over at another match on the other side of the field house.  The coach has the authority to demand an accounting of the correct score in a bout headed to OT that shouldn't be.  With that said, what kind of ref doesn't take a few seconds to confirm with the table where exactly the point scoring is in a match like this?   Poorly handled all the way around.

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The accountability for KSU ended when he questioned the ref if the score was correct and they told him it was and to sit down.

 

no if you are so confident you make a formal challenge

 

go over the officials head

 

everyone failed but it isnt cornells fault and the ncaa shouldnt go revrse matches after the next match starts on a mat

 

blaming cornell is so stupid

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Scribe, we have to take Koll at his word, and I've always thought him to be a stand-up guy.  But "for stalling or something" is very shaky.  Even so, the KSU coaches had the responsibility to go to he head table at the mat and confer with the ref and scorer to make 100% sure the score was correct.  Like i said, lesson learned--for many people.

 

I go with this too...... I watched the match, thought it seemed like Dean won on riding time, but I must have missed something. It wasn't until the issue blew up later that I realized that I didn't miss anything. I give Koll the benefit of the doubt on this one as well.

 

I pretty much blame the KSU coaches (as was said they should have had somebody watching this sort of thing), and a screwed up policy the will be changed. Too late for Dean.

 

I have been highly critical of the situation, but the wrestlers had nothing to do with it ..... if memory serves they were busy wrestling. :-)

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You didn't see it and yet you say this .... wow.  We have a winner here.  See it ... Brian eased back and coasted assuming it was going to OT.  Took a few seconds and it seems like he said what the hell and then went for it and easily turned him.  This is a real thing ... 

Talk about speculating.  If it was so easy to get back points at that time, why let up so you can go into OT?  That doesn't make sense.

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no if you are so confident you make a formal challenge

 

go over the officials head

 

everyone failed but it isnt cornells fault and the ncaa shouldnt go revrse matches after the next match starts on a mat

 

blaming cornell is so stupid

They did a formal challenge, went over the refs head. They were told F off.

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