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The_Education

Kyle Dake's gamble

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Make the same argument 15 years from now...when this current group has gone through a few Olympic cycles. Their collective resumes at that time may be stronger than the competitors of Cael's era...time will tell.

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Make the same argument 15 years from now...when this current group has gone through a few Olympic cycles. Their collective resumes at that time may be stronger than the competitors of Cael's era...time will tell.

 

Yes.

 

I actually agree that Cael's competition was/and will remain tougher. But saying something like "Eggum won a silver medal. Taylor can not even come close to making a world team." is just flat out silly. Taylor hasnt even graduated from college yet.

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Competing at 165 this year is obviously the tougher route for Kyle Dake, but really, isn't winning 165 the only way to shut the doubters up? Not that it was a factor in his decision - and no disrespect to Jason Welch, DSJ, and the other guys at 157 - but folks more or less accept as fact that Dake WOULD win the national title @ 157 if he ever went there. That's a pretty good place to be in, to be so good that whether he wins 165 or takes 2nd or 3rd or whatever he'd be remembered as the guy who could easily have walked through 157 but took a shot at something special in a tougher weight. I'm a DT fan, but you gotta respect Dake for what he's established for himself and what he's trying to do this season - for himself, for his team, for the sport and its fans.

 

And if Dake does win nationals @ 165 this year, I hope we can cool it with the side-by-side comparisons with Cael. That's like saying, "Who is the better scientist? The person who discovered the DNA double-helix, or the person who validated the Standard Model of particle physics?" Apples and oranges, and each is special in its own right.

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Make the same argument 15 years from now...when this current group has gone through a few Olympic cycles. Their collective resumes at that time may be stronger than the competitors of Cael's era...time will tell.

 

 

+1

 

Saying Dake is no better than Cael without his career complete isn't even a fair comparison. If he were to win World Championships and Olympic Golds then how would it compare?

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Make the same argument 15 years from now...when this current group has gone through a few Olympic cycles. Their collective resumes at that time may be stronger than the competitors of Cael's era...time will tell.

 

 

+1

 

Saying Dake is no better than Cael without his career complete isn't even a fair comparison. If he were to win World Championships and Olympic Golds then how would it compare?

 

It is fair the way he is trying to say it (Dake's College career vs. Cael's)...the thing that is wrong is him automatically writing off Dake's competition as inferior because they have never made world teams, or won Olympic medals...they havent had the chance yet!

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I bring up next level accomplishments when people try to justify saying Dake had tougeher weight classes- I simply have to laugh. Hahn, Jones, Eggum, Cormier, Vering, Hrovat and Trenge. It is simply in Cael's favor. Three of those guys were NCAA champs and the others were not because of Cael. Next level has to be factored in here when you got two studs like Dake and Sanderson. How else can you separate to greats! Every category in college Sanderson wins in my opinion with maybe the exception of defense. Cael winning three Hodges and finishing 2nd in the Hodge voting his freshman year behind Neal. That is crazy-I mean cmon I really can't believe poeple are comparing these two and that is no disrespect to Dake at all.

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4 titles, 4 seasons, 4 different weights, no red shirt, ivy league courses = best college wrestler ever.

 

You are 100% correct with your statement. If he wins the title this year, he will be the best NCAA wrestler in the history of the sport to date.

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I bring up next level accomplishments when people try to justify saying Dake had tougeher weight classes- I simply have to laugh. Hahn, Jones, Eggum, Cormier, Vering, Hrovat and Trenge. It is simply in Cael's favor. Three of those guys were NCAA champs and the others were not because of Cael. Next level has to be factored in here when you got two studs like Dake and Sanderson. How else can you separate to greats! Every category in college Sanderson wins in my opinion with maybe the exception of defense. Cael winning three Hodges and finishing 2nd in the Hodge voting his freshman year behind Neal. That is crazy-I mean cmon I really can't believe poeple are comparing these two and that is no disrespect to Dake at all.

 

The point, that you seem to be overlooking (?), is that Dake's college competition (Taylor, Caldwell, St. John, etc) has not had a crack yet at the world level acomplishments of Cael's (Hahn, Jones, Eggum, Cormier, etc.)

 

I agree with you that 15 years from now, the Cael group will be more acomplished...but you can't say that just yet when the Dake group is still in college competing and not even focused on freestyle yet!!

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Although usually the middle weights have better competition than the upper weights, Dake hasn't had a loaded weight class until this year. Cael had a lot of very talented guys to go through. If you make a list of Dake's best wins, Taylor is at the top, followed by guys like Molinaro, Marion, St. John, Humphrey. Maybe 10 years from now we'll look back and say those weights were loaded, but right now Cael's competition during the entire 4 years looks much tougher, with the exception of this year for Dake in which he's going head to head with the poster boy for college wrestling. But even if we say that the level of competition has been identical, Cael's level of dominance was off the charts. Not just the 159-0 part, but the margin of victory. He just didn't have 3-2 wins. A handful throughout his college career. And normally matches get closer the more guys wrestle. But Cael repeatedly beat down top guys, including capping it off with a major decision over Trenge his senior year. The equivalent would be if Dake were to major decision Caldwell and Taylor this year, and then beat Taylor again at NCAA by a wide margin.

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I realize Cael was busy being the Hodge winner, but did he actually beat anyone who was one?

 

No, which is why if Dake wins out this year, he is definitely deserving to be in this discussion. For most wrestlers, even entertaining the thought of comparing their career to Cael is ludicrous. In this case it's not crazy. I do think there can be a distinction between asking "Who had the better career" and "Who's accomplishment is more impressive". Both could be debatable, but to me, "better" is based more on statistics such as record and dominance, whereas "impressive" leaves a lot of room for opinion. If Dake wins #4, I honestly don't know which career is more impressive. Both are extremely low probability events. Cael rattling off 4 straight years being undefeated and destroying great wrestlers time and time again by large margins is crazy. But so is winning 4 titles in 4 years starting as a true freshman, changing weights each year and going to Cornell. Hard to say which is more impressive.

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Cael has a better legacy because he was much more mysterious and never lost, ever, in official competition. Cael was pre-flo era and many people never really even got to see him compete.

 

I've seen Dake in a bathtub on FLO and he's lost to some random guys...way less mystique but smart enough to win at any weight class against anybody...

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I really appreciate what Dake has done and it has been an amazing run. Now, I know Dake has beaten some outstanding wrestlers(like Taylor) but he has some losses and has had some close matches where he won close matches. However, what made Cael special, at least to me, was his dominance against excellent wrestlers.He was, literally, a man among boys when he wrestled. He barely looked like he had to try in most cases and still did practically anything he wanted with his opponents. His physical strength also was unbelievable. I have heard from people who wrestled him who said he was ridiculously strong.

 

I also don't think because Dake may win 4 different weight classes makes for an argument that he is the best ever. I do think it is a cool storyline but not a difference maker in determining that he is better than the other 4 timers. I think instead, I would look at whether I think there ever was a better wrestler at the weight class and I don't think Cael would've lost to any other 190lb ncaa champs in history, imo. Dake, though, I think could've had his hands full with a number of ncaa champs in the middleweights(Burroughs obviously comes to mind and some others).

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I realize Cael was busy being the Hodge winner, but did he actually beat anyone who was one?

All the Hodge winners prior to Cael were seniors when they won. Sanderson was the first underclassman recepient, as well as the only 3x winner in history.

 

(Some claim the only reason the other Hodge winners graduated was to avoid facing The Professor. However, I'm unable to ascertain whether this is true or not. :P )

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Cael has a better legacy because he was much more mysterious and never lost, ever, in official competition. Cael was pre-flo era and many people never really even got to see him compete.

 

I've seen Dake in a bathtub on FLO and he's lost to some random guys...way less mystique but smart enough to win at any weight class against anybody...

 

I wonder how Cael would have handled things if he had been making his run now, with FLO and all the other internet coverage. He only graduated 10 years ago, but those 10 years have seen an enormous increase in social media and constant coverage. Cael hated interviews and liked to escape attention and remain mysterious (still does), but it would be much harder to do now. At every event after his freshman year he'd be bombarded with random FLO guys sticking a camera in his face asking him how long he thinks he'll stay undefeated.

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I think it's 3 things. 1) he's thinking about freestyle and pushing himself in college and 2) he knows he's had thin weight classes in his first 3 years and no one will say that about this weight class and 3) it's another chance to distinguish himself from the other 4 timers (no RS year and different weight classes - everyone knows that).

 

His freshman year was a very depleted weight class. Russell was red shirting and the other top placewinners at that weight from the year before had graduated. Then the next year, as the 4th seed, he doesn't have to face Caldwell (who would have likely destroyed him) after he gets injured.

 

I'm not sure he'll beat Taylor in March. I actually think it will come down to OT again, but this time Taylor wins. But I wish him luck. He really is courageous and he's made this season a lot more exciting.

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The only other time that i can remember of a wrestler comparable to Dake moving up to wrestle the same weight a defending champ was Mark Schultz moving up from 167 which he won as a sophomore to go against Ed Banach who'd won 2 titles at 177 as a sophomore.

 

Ownings coming down during the season to go after Gable was also monumental.

 

What Dake is doing is good for him, he has grown physically each year and added the muscle to be strong enough for the weight. I think that this showdown if it occurs will draw national attention. Heck, USA Today might actually give the match the coverage it deserves. If Dake wins will Sports Illustrated put him on the civer?

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I realize Cael was busy being the Hodge winner, but did he actually beat anyone who was one?

 

 

NO ... cause it's pretty hard to beat yourself after his RS FR year.... He was runner up, then won it 3 times himself.

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Oh he'll get the SI cover, the Wheaties box, an ESPY, and on and on. This is monumental what he's going for. He may even get a Hodge...

 

Seriously, who would have thought a guy could win 3 national titles in his first 3 seasons at 3 different weights, with one of those seasons going undefeated, and NOT earn a Hodge trophy!? I understand there was no screw-job here, that's just the way it all played out. It's still somewhat unbelievable.

 

It's only unbelievable to anyone who doesn't understand what the Hodge trophy is awarded for. Not saying that is you, obviously it seems like you do, just speaking in general :D

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