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TripNSweep

Really bad call and Matt Brown is a $%&*

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There were no locked hands and Brown was not trying to escape.  There was a guy controlling an unlocked hand and placing against another hand.

I think your cable company screwed up and streamed you Fantasy Island instead. That's the only explanation.

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Brown is a class act, high achiever, and won the title.  It's entirely possible that without locked hands Brown would have earned the escape for the win.  That was a blatant example of locked hands.  I actually have a problem when two hands touch accidentally in transition and they call locked hands when there is clearly no benefit to the offending wrestler.  Rules are rules and some of the rules need to be changed.

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These two guys wrestled an excellent match... I could care less who won...  I just like to see great wrestling.

That being said...

 

You can't just read half of the rule... and only enforce the part that you like..

He DID lock hands...

BUT... he gets reaction time to release... 

Here's the rule (the case book interpretation)...:

 

Rule 5 / Infractions:

RULING: The wrestler in the advantage position could lock hands once the bottom wrestler's weight is supported entirely by both feet.

(GO BACK and look at the video - he's standing... )

Once the wrestler brings the opponent to the mat, the wrestler with the advantage has reaction time to break the grip.

 

Reaction time = "Up to 2 seconds" (not 2 seconds .. but up to 2 seconds.. THAT'S 1.9 seconds) 

.... as the lead official stated himself... there was 1 second on the clock... (hmmm... that's less than 2 seconds)

 

The case book scenario is EXACTLY the same as this situation...

 

So.. back to what everyone is saying... 

It's already in the books... so... I'll leave this one alone now...

 

Agree that the rules allow reaction time to break the grip when returning to the mat, but where do the rules specify that "Reaction time = Up to 2 seconds"?  I've always understood reaction time to be a subjective judgement call by the ref.

 

Anyway, assuming that "Reaction time = Up to 2 seconds" is indeed the rule, why do you also say that means "not 2 seconds..but up to 2 seconds.  THAT's 1.9 seconds"?  Why wouldn't a wrestler be allowed up to a 2 second maximum amount of time to break the grip if "Reaction time  = Up to 2 seconds" is what the rule book actually says?

 

With all due respect, if reaction time isn't defined in the rule book with the specificity you assert, then your comment that "the lead official stated himself...there was 1 second on the clock...(hmmm...that's less than 2 seconds)"  isn't dispositive of the issue at all. OTOH, if reaction time is strictly up to the ref's judgement then perhaps Shiels was just indicating that he felt Wilps had enough reaction time to break the grip before that last second ticked away - but didn't do so.  

 

Additionally, Shiels didn't actually say "there was 1 second on the clock."  Rather, he said; "After further review, one second was left with locked hands."  That would support my interpretation above that the ref felt Wilps could've broken the grip before time expired.  Moreover, Shiels could have even been indicating that the maximum reaction time had already been reached with one second still remaining on the clock.  (Again, reaction time being defined as simply whatever amount of time the ref believes is adequate, not 1.9 seconds.)

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Agree that the rules allow reaction time to break the grip when returning to the mat, but where do the rules specify that "Reaction time = Up to 2 seconds"?  I've always understood reaction time to be a subjective judgement call by the ref.

 

Anyway, assuming that "Reaction time = Up to 2 seconds" is indeed the rule, why do you also say that means "not 2 seconds..but up to 2 seconds.  THAT's 1.9 seconds"?  Why wouldn't a wrestler be allowed up to a 2 second maximum amount of time to break the grip if "Reaction time  = Up to 2 seconds" is what the rule book actually says?

 

With all due respect, if reaction time isn't defined in the rule book with the specificity you assert, then your comment that "the lead official stated himself...there was 1 second on the clock...(hmmm...that's less than 2 seconds)"  isn't dispositive of the issue at all. OTOH, if reaction time is strictly up to the ref's judgement then perhaps Shiels was just indicating that he felt Wilps had enough reaction time to break the grip before that last second ticked away - but didn't do so.  

 

Additionally, Shiels didn't actually say "there was 1 second on the clock."  Rather, he said; "After further review, one second was left with locked hands."  That would support my interpretation above that the ref felt Wilps could've broken the grip before time expired.  Moreover, Shiels could have even been indicating that the maximum reaction time had already been reached with one second still remaining on the clock.  (Again, reaction time being defined as simply whatever amount of time the ref believes is adequate, not 1.9 seconds.)

With all due respect your typical long assed dashboard analyses are boring as ****. Ya feel me?

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With all due respect your typical long assed dashboard analyses are boring as ****. Ya feel me?

 

LOL!  Well, it's pretty easy to just skip over 'em or simply put me on ignore.  I suggested that to you before, so it's really your problem if you continue to subject yourself to material you find boring - not mine.

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Matt Brown quote in the Williamsport Sun-Gazette:  http://sungazette.com/page/category.detail/nav/5017/Local-Sports.html

 

"I never remember winning a match like that.  But it's kind of fun in practice we do that all the time," he said.  "Morgan (McIntosh) is a big, strong kid, trying to ride me and I'll drop down to one knee so he has to let go of locked hands.  So that's something I feel comfortable with."

 

When did 'success with honor' at PSU become 'winning any way you can'?  I guess that died with Paterno.  People have mentioned other standout, role model wrestlers.  I don't think you'd ever have seen Robert Kokesh pull something that this.

LOL is this a serious post?  They practice it so that they can avoid that situation as the top man.  If Pitt practiced that maybe Wilps could have avoided the stall call.

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LOL is this a serious post?  They practice it so that they can avoid that situation as the top man.  If Pitt practiced that maybe Wilps could have avoided the stall call.

 

 

..Success with Honor went out the window the day Paterno covered up the pedophile coach on his staff.

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but Brown was clearly NOT trying to escape.  he went to two feet, dropped to a knee, and pointed to the locked hands.

 

..Success with Honor went out the window the day Paterno covered up the pedophile coach on his staff.

So the entire Penn State Athletic facility is tainted because of one old man in a different sport all together? Come on, grow up.

 

but Brown was clearly NOT trying to escape.  he went to two feet, dropped to a knee, and pointed to the locked hands.

You clearly dont know wrestling then, he stood up, the first point of contact on the mat was his left hand, he hip heisted out to create seperation. That was the point Wilps locked his hands. He didnt just drop to his knees.

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..

 

So the entire Penn State Athletic facility is tainted because of one old man in a different sport all together? Come on, grow up.

 

You clearly dont know wrestling then, he stood up, the first point of contact on the mat was his left hand, he hip heisted out to create seperation. That was the point Wilps locked his hands. He didnt just drop to his knees.

 

...psu fans (I'm a former one) see JVP as hero/victim, I see him as a foolish coward. 
..not knocking Penn State's athletes, but the Success with Honor Banner at Rec Hall Dual Meets has been properly removed and placed under jvp's statue.

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At this point I will never bitch when stalling is called..... stalling is stalling no matter when it's called.

Locking hands is locking hands and is illegal. You can't pick and choose when to call it.

What I see is.........

Matt Brown NATIONAL CHAMPION.

As a coach I always told my guys to congratulate their opponent when they win..... they figured a way to get it done, and they beat a darn good guy to win.

Edited by AKHUNTER

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Browns has always been a class guy - in his post-finals presser he said in a self deprecating way "as a kid you dream of getting up to the plate for the championship and hitting a home run, but sometimes you just get a bunt (to win)"

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2 tremendous young men.  Wilps is applying to medical school, clearly is an erudite, good looking, articulate credit to Pitt.   Brown maintains a sterling academic record and seems to be a solid family man.  

 

My congratulations to both if them.  They are set for good lives and are models for those that follow @ Pitt / PSU.   

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2 tremendous young men.  Wilps is applying to medical school, clearly is an erudite, good looking, articulate credit to Pitt.   Brown maintains a sterling academic record and seems to be a solid family man.  

 

My congratulations to both if them.  They are set for good lives and are models for those that follow @ Pitt / PSU.   

 

Best post in this entire thread.  I'm a PSU fan, but, I root for Pitt 2nd & PA boys 3rd.  These are two outstanding kids with bright futures.  I don't want to speak for Matt Brown, but, I bet he wishes they could have finished it on their feet in OT.  I do too.  Now, the title feels a bit tainted, which makes me feel bad for Brown (Of course, I already feel bad for Wilps).

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Best post in this entire thread.  I'm a PSU fan, but, I root for Pitt 2nd & PA boys 3rd.  These are two outstanding kids with bright futures.  I don't want to speak for Matt Brown, but, I bet he wishes they could have finished it on their feet in OT.  I do too.  Now, the title feels a bit tainted, which makes me feel bad for Brown (Of course, I already feel bad for Wilps).

 

Except Matt Brown made the choice to win this way - the officials did NOT make the call of locking hands initially, and Cael didn't raise the challange flag until Brown started motioning to do so.  Brown COULD have let this go to overtime, but he chose to end it (legitimately, IMO) on the penalty point.

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Except Matt Brown made the choice to win this way - the officials did NOT make the call of locking hands initially, and Cael didn't raise the challange flag until Brown started motioning to do so.  Brown COULD have let this go to overtime, but he chose to end it (legitimately, IMO) on the penalty point.

He couldn't have foreseen that the review would take forever and there would be a second review to determine something that should have been reviewed during the first review. I also doubt he could have predicted that people would be besmirching his name and doubting his integrity due to how the match ended.

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He couldn't have foreseen that the review would take forever and there would be a second review to determine something that should have been reviewed during the first review. I also doubt he could have predicted that people would be besmirching his name and doubting his integrity due to how the match ended.

 

I don't think the fact that it took a long time to review or that they reviewed it a second time really had anything to do with it.   As redblades said I believe Brown was indicating to challenge it, and he also pointed to the locked hands as time was expiring (but also as redblades said the calls made were correct so I don't really see anything wrong with that), so the fact that he didn't seem excited about winning that way was a surprise to me personally. 

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I don't think the fact that it took a long time to review or that they reviewed it a second time really had anything to do with it.   As redblades said I believe Brown was indicating to challenge it, and he also pointed to the locked hands as time was expiring (but also as redblades said the calls made were correct so I don't really see anything wrong with that), so the fact that he didn't seem excited about winning that way was a surprise to me personally.

 

The reviews took so long the crowd was booing and yelling for wrestling. I imagine that could take the initial edge off the victory. I don't have any issue with what he did either. He pointed out the locked hands to the ref and communicated to his coach so a challenge could be initiated. I can't imagine anyone not calling attention to a rule being broken that was potentially stopping an escape in the waning seconds of a tied championship match.

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Wilps goes to the Dominic Republic on mission trips, is heading to Med school next-great great kid, form a great family!  Remember his brother did pretty well wrestling at Pitt as well.  Brown as well is a great kid. 

Tough ending to a real tough match but c'mon-neither kid should be criticized here should they?

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I fully agree with BigBrog----

 

So Wilps committed a penalty yet Brown is the one that is the bad guy??  Amazing the thought process of some people.  Congrats to both wrestlers....both extremely talented and smart young men.

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Here is the Pitt side of the story, as published in yesterday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  As noted by the previous poster, Mr. Wilps is a smart young man headed to medical school, so it seems like time will heal this wound:

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/college/2015/03/27/South-Xtra-Violations-cost-Char-Valley-grad-in-NCAA-final/stories/201503270092

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Here is the Pitt side of the story, as published in yesterday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  As noted by the previous poster, Mr. Wilps is a smart young man headed to medical school, so it seems like time will heal this wound:

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/college/2015/03/27/South-Xtra-Violations-cost-Char-Valley-grad-in-NCAA-final/stories/201503270092

 Both are obviously great guys, and Wilps seems to have a great attitude after his loss. As a neutral wrestling fan you do want to see the bout go to OT. But after watching countless replays, I believe the right call was made. As for the posters ripping on Brown and Cael's decision to wave the flag for the locked hands call, the same guys would have ripped on Cael and Brown if they would have went to OT and Brown lost. They would have said what "dummies", why would they not challenge a clearly locked hands call! Now Brown has no National title and it is all Cael's fault. Either way you can't win with some people.

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