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Cael and Kyle

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Kyle is threatening to win four national titles at four different weight classes.

 

Could Cael have done the same, had he desired? In any given year, could he have jumped a weight class and defeated the national titlist?

 

 

Would have been kind of hard starting at 184.

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Kyle is threatening to win four national titles at four different weight classes.

Could Cael have done the same, had he desired? In any given year, could he have jumped a weight class and defeated the national titlist?

Yes, he "could". Now let's move on.

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I think Cael could've gone up a weight and won a title. But as gimp said, winning at 4 different weights would've been a problem starting at 184.

 

184#

197#

285#

what next.... the old hwt Chris Taylor superheavywt unlimited class???

 

It has to be said though... Dake is threatening to do it without a RS year. If Cael didn't take his RS year, there's a good chance he wouldn't have won 4 titles. Ditto for Pat Smith.

 

If Dake is successful, his achievement will be unprecedented.

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Kyle is threatening to win four national titles at four different weight classes.

 

Could Cael have done the same, had he desired? In any given year, could he have jumped a weight class and defeated the national titlist?

Hmm...your question is posed as if wrestlers can simply choose how much they will weigh in any given year. However, that's true in only a limited sense. Often the controlling factor is maturation rate, which can vary widely from individual to individual, especially in college age students. For example, Metcalf was a career 149-pounder in college and wrestled 145 pounds his senior year in high school. Dake also wrestled 145 pounds as a high school senior. However, he cut to 141 as a college freshman, then moved up one weight class per year to 149, 157 and now 165.

 

It seems to me that Dake is simply a late bloomer (with reference to his physical maturation, not wrestling skills). In this regard, he is more typical of a high school than a college wrestler. Metcalf was at the other end of the continuum, with Sanderson somewhere between the two. Metcalf didn't move up at all during college. Sanderson moved up 13 pounds in his final year (and was cutting very little, if any, by then). Dake has moved up 24 pounds, in increments of 8 pounds per year.

 

In short, this is more about Dake's natural growth rate pattern than him setting out to win 4 titles, all at different weights, at the beginning of his college career. However, since things have turned out as they are, the latter certainly adds even more excitement to the story.

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Didn't Smith win 3 titles and THEN take a redshirt year? If that is correct, do you really think that there was a good chance he wouldn't have won as a Senior, 3 time defending champ???

He definitely wouldn't have won a fourth title had he not taken a redshirt. Oklahoma State was banned from the NCAA Championships that year.

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If Cael didn't take his RS year, there's a good chance he wouldn't have won 4 titles. Ditto for Pat Smith.

Hard to say. The weight classes were adjusted after Cael's redshirt year. And Pat Smith did win as a true freshman, which is arguably the toughest year. I think some assume he redshirted as a freshman, but Pat had already won 3 NCAA titles (and completed 2 unbeaten seasons) before he took his redshirt.

 

Also, when Pat returned for his final year, Markus Mollica (who won the previous year when Pat redshirted) ended up finishing 5th while Pat claimed his 4th title. The next year, after Pat graduated, Mollica won his second and final NCAA title. Therefore, I think it's more likely than not that Smith would have been able to win 4 titles without taking a redshirt.

 

With regard to Sanderson, I'm sure his redshirt year benefited him. However, of all the wrestlers in NCAA history who have taken a redshirt, I think the one with the most perfect seasons, the most NCAA Outstanding Wrestler awards, and the most Hodge Trophies, would be the one most likely to be able to win 4 titles without redshirting.

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I guess making the assumption that Cael could have gotten down to 174 his first year might have been a stretch.

 

As far as Pat Smith is concerned, it's fortunate that he was a true freshman national champion who had the luxury of using a red shirt year during Oklahoma State's year of probation.

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I guess making the assumption that Cael could have gotten down to 174 his first year might have been a stretch.

Actually, he would've had to go down to 167 as the weight classes were different his redshirt year...but tech_fall's answer would still apply:

 

[highlight=#e1ebf2]of course he could he is Cael Sanderson![/highlight]

Well-played, sir.

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Didn't Smith win 3 titles and THEN take a redshirt year? If that is correct, do you really think that there was a good chance he wouldn't have won as a Senior, 3 time defending champ???

He definitely wouldn't have won a fourth title had he not taken a redshirt. Oklahoma State was banned from the NCAA Championships that year.

True enough, but to get to the essential point of sbdude's question, I think Smith could have won 4 titles without redshirting. Obviously, winning as a true freshman is the biggest hurdle and he was able to do that. Smith ran off 3 titles in a row (including going unbeaten as a sophomore and junior) before taking his redshirt. The guy who won in 1993 (Mollica of Arizona State) finished 5th when Pat returned to claim his 4th title the following year.

 

In short, if Pat didn't have to redshirt because of the ban, he would have been a 3x champ, coming off two unbeaten seasons, and returning in the same weight class in 1993. Therefore, he would have been the odds-on favorite to win another title. And, considering how things actually played out, I 'd say it would have been more likely that Smith would have won in '93, instead of Mollica.

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Didn't Smith win 3 titles and THEN take a redshirt year? If that is correct, do you really think that there was a good chance he wouldn't have won as a Senior, 3 time defending champ???

 

----

 

Didn't realize that. So, I would agree, and have to say Smith would've been a favorite to win 4 (ignoring the probation issue).

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I guess making the assumption that Cael could have gotten down to 174 his first year might have been a stretch.

Actually, he would've had to go down to 167 as the weight classes were different his redshirt year...but tech_fall's answer would still apply:

 

[highlight=#e1ebf2]of course he could he is Cael Sanderson![/highlight]

Well-played, sir.

 

 

Not sure what you're talking about. Cael was a red shirt freshman in 1999, when he won at 184. 174 was the weight class below him.

 

In his true freshman year- 1998, Mitch Clark won at 177 and Tim Hartung at 190. Those would have been Cael's choices if he had competed that year.

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Didn't Smith win 3 titles and THEN take a redshirt year? If that is correct, do you really think that there was a good chance he wouldn't have won as a Senior, 3 time defending champ???

He definitely wouldn't have won a fourth title had he not taken a redshirt. Oklahoma State was banned from the NCAA Championships that year.

True enough, but to get to the essential point of sbdude's question, I think Smith could have won 4 titles without redshirting. Obviously, winning as a true freshman is the biggest hurdle and he was able to do that. Smith ran off 3 titles in a row (including going unbeaten as a sophomore and junior) before taking his redshirt. The guy who won in 1993 (Mollica of Arizona State) finished 5th when Pat returned to claim his 4th title the following year.

 

In short, if Pat didn't have to redshirt because of the ban, he would have been a 3x champ, coming off two unbeaten seasons, and returning in the same weight class in 1993. Therefore, he would have been the odds-on favorite to win another title. And, considering how things actually played out, I 'd say it would have been more likely that Smith would have won in '93, instead of Mollica.

 

Not going to argue that winning the first is the hardest, because it is but McD won as a freshman and then his competition get much better.

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I guess making the assumption that Cael could have gotten down to 174 his first year might have been a stretch.

Actually, he would've had to go down to 167 as the weight classes were different his redshirt year...but tech_fall's answer would still apply:

 

[highlight=#e1ebf2]of course he could he is Cael Sanderson![/highlight]

Well-played, sir.

 

 

Not sure what you're talking about. Cael was a red shirt freshman in 1999, when he won at 184. 174 was the weight class below him.

 

In his true freshman year- 1998, Mitch Clark won at 177 and Tim Hartung at 190. Those would have been Cael's choices if he had competed that year.

Perhaps I misunderstood your original question. I thought you were referring to Cael moving up one weight class per year (like Dake ). The last 4 weight classes in 1998 were 167, 177, 190 & 285. So, I based my answer on Cael wrestling at 167 as a true freshman, then 184, 197 & 285 the next three years (i.e., 4th weight from the top, 3rd weight from the top, 2nd weight from the top, and then the top weight class).

 

That said, he could have wrestled 177, 184, 197 & 285 and hypothetically won 4 titles in 4 different weight classes that way. However, due to the fact the weight classes changed, the move from 177 to 184 would have been only a 7 pound jump, which some might not consider moving up a "full weight" class.

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Not going to argue that winning the first is the hardest, because it is but McD won as a freshman and then his competition get much better.

 

 

Actually his freshman year 125 was stacked. However, injuries held back Escobedo and especially Nickerson and McDonough was able to get to the finals without hitting either. I would say that was the deepest bracket of the 3 Nationals he has participated in.

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Not going to argue that winning the first is the hardest, because it is but McD won as a freshman and then his competition get much better.

 

 

Actually his freshman year 125 was stacked. However, injuries held back Escobedo and especially Nickerson and McDonough was able to get to the finals without hitting either. I would say that was the deepest bracket of the 3 Nationals he has participated in.

 

 

Wasn't claiming otherwise. I was simply pointing out that Long and Nickerson were both able to beat Robles, who one year later was unstoppable.

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Not going to argue that winning the first is the hardest, because it is but McD won as a freshman and then his competition get much better.

Actually his freshman year 125 was stacked. However, injuries held back Escobedo and especially Nickerson and McDonough was able to get to the finals without hitting either. I would say that was the deepest bracket of the 3 Nationals he has participated in.

Agreed, and if McDonough had wrestled 125 as a true freshman, he would have been in perhaps an even tougher weight class. In addition to that year's eventual champ Nickerson, it included 2007 and 2008 champs (Donahoe and Escobedo), future champ Robles (who finished 4th that year), as well as Precin (who finished 3rd). No knock on McDonough, as he possibly could have won as a true freshman, but the odds would have been against it, IMO.

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In HS cael jumped a bunch of weight classes - I think he was very small as a freshman HS (light weight). I always thought he wrestled so well in college in the heavier weight classes because he retained those light weight cat like skills he had in early HS days

 

I think Cael was 3X HS champ (or did he get 4X????? I cannot remember

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In HS cael jumped a bunch of weight classes - I think he was very small as a freshman HS (light weight). I always thought he wrestled so well in college in the heavier weight classes because he retained those light weight cat like skills he had in early HS days

 

I think Cael was 3X HS champ (or did he get 4X????? I cannot remember

 

Cael was a 4x state champ 1994–1997 (119, 135, 145, 171). I know Cael lost to Joe Heskett at Reno his junior year at 145. Heskett then lost to Rockey Smart also from Utah in the finales. Did Cael and Smart ever wrestle in High School?

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In HS cael jumped a bunch of weight classes - I think he was very small as a freshman HS (light weight). I always thought he wrestled so well in college in the heavier weight classes because he retained those light weight cat like skills he had in early HS days

 

I think Cael was 3X HS champ (or did he get 4X????? I cannot remember

He got 4 titles in HS - and you're right about him jumping a bunch of weights (119, 135, 145, 171.)

 

Dake, was a 2x champ who wrestled 130 and 140 his junior and senior years. I don't know what other weights he wrestled, but there were probably quite a few as he wrestled 6 years in high school, starting in the 7th grade. (That's allowed in some smaller NY schools. Nickerson, you may recall, was a 5x HS champ.)

 

EDIT: Sorry, lowrider. I didn't refresh my browser so I didn't see that you had already answered.

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