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VakAttack

Wrestler's choice after injury time

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I've been thinking about this for awhile, and it came up twice in the NCAA Finals.

 

I understand the thought process behind giving the non-injured wrestler choice if injury time is called (prevent lung timeouts).  I agree with it for the most part.  And I know that ALL wrestlers who get the choice will take the advantage.  I guess my thought is, in a case like in both finals matches (Moisey and Port), should there be, for lack of a better term, a "gentlemen's agreement" in place for the wrestler to choose neutral?  Both Port and Moisey were legitimately injured, and it felt off that Tomasello and Stieber should benefit from those injuries.  Again, this applies to ALL wrestlers, I know Iowa wrestlers do the same thing, these two examples were just high profile given the NCAA finals.  Further, it should be noted that I didn't think it affected the outcome of each match.

 

Anyway, maybe I'm just rambling.

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VakAttack,

 

 

 

How do you know that Moisey and Port were "legitimately injured"? I'm not saying that they weren't, but I'm curious how you know for certain. If you can't tell for sure if someone is legitimately injured, how can you have a "gentlemen's agreement"?

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VakAttack,

 

 

 

How do you know that Moisey and Port were "legitimately injured"? I'm not saying that they weren't, but I'm curious how you know for certain. If you can't tell for sure if someone is legitimately injured, how can you have a "gentlemen's agreement"?

 

X-Ray/MRI vision powers.

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I'm not a big fan of that rule.

 

I know it helps prevents lung timeouts, but most of the time when those happen the wrestler taking the timeout is up big anyway. This rule had an effect on the outcome on a bunch of matches and I don't think its fair when most of the time the wrestlers are legitimatetly injured

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This is an interesting post Vak. I was just thinking of starting another thread that discussed how wrestling has seemingly gotten a lot softer over the years. Once upon a time, wrestlers were celebrated for being able to hurt their opponents with legal holds. If you could beat someone and hurt them in the process, that added to your dominance. Tales of certain wrestlers "crippling" opponents used to be awe inspiring, now they are largely frowned upon (from my experience). Even in the US, old timers used to tell stories of how beat up Hodge and Koll's opponents were after they got through with them.

 

The legendary Habibi immediately comes to mind. Many here only know him from the monumental upset loss that he had to Blubaugh. The Habibi I knew was a feared wrestler. At one point he had a celebrated streak of wins that included his opponents having to be carried off of the mat with medical assistance. In short, people loved him for it. He had a huge following.  Today, it seems the person who gets hurt is the one who is celebrated. It seems like every week I see a story of how this or that wrestler is competing and winning with one arm/leg (which is a ridiculous statement since the wrestler always uses both arms or legs in the match) even when his injury is the result of someone else hurting him. Years ago, if you weren't able to continue a wrestling match because your opponent hurt you, that was seen as a weakness. You were viewed as being dominated in a very profound way. This mindset is almost becoming extinct it seems.

 

Back to the topic, I believe that Stieber and Tomasello deserved the choice since they were able to get their opponents to stop the match as a result of holds that they applied on them. My "old school" mindset just won't allow me to see Port or Moisey as deserving of being rewarded for getting physically dominated in the particular situations that got them hurt. Imo, they already got enough favors from the ref by having the match stopped so that they were able to get themselves together after being handled.  

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This is an interesting post Vak. I was just thinking of starting another thread that discussed how wrestling has seemingly gotten a lot softer over the years. Once upon a time, wrestlers were celebrated for being able to hurt their opponents with legal holds. If you could beat someone and hurt them in the process, that added to your dominance. Tales of certain wrestlers "crippling" opponents used to be awe inspiring, now they are largely frowned upon (from my experience). Even in the US, old timers used to tell stories of how beat up Hodge and Koll's opponents were after they got through with them.

 

The legendary Habibi immediately comes to mind. Many here only know him from the monumental upset loss that he had to Blubaugh. The Habibi I knew was a feared wrestler. At one point he had a celebrated streak of wins that included his opponents having to be carried off of the mat with medical assistance. In short, people loved him for it. He had a huge following.  Today, it seems the person who gets hurt is the one who is celebrated. It seems like every week I see a story of how this or that wrestler is competing and winning with one arm/leg (which is a ridiculous statement since the wrestler always uses both arms or legs in the match) even when his injury is the result of someone else hurting him. Years ago, if you weren't able to continue a wrestling match because your opponent hurt you, that was seen as a weakness. You were viewed as being dominated in a very profound way. This mindset is almost becoming extinct it seems.

 

Back to the topic, I believe that Stieber and Tomasello deserved the choice since they were able to get their opponents to stop the match as a result of holds that they applied on them. My "old school" mindset just won't allow me to see Port or Moisey as deserving of being rewarded for getting physically dominated in the particular situations that got them hurt. Imo, they already got enough favors from the ref by having the match stopped so that they were able to get themselves together after being handled.  

 

What is most important is that you like your own posts. 

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Wrestling isn't mma. I enjoy both, but in wrestling guys shouldn't be trying to injure each other. I felt bad for Moisey- that was almost a kneebar and it looked painful.

 

Not sure I feel about the rule. It didn't seem right that Moisey got his knee twisted and was then "punished" for it.

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I think the rule stays....... we have short memories but I can't tell you how many times I saw injuries that were "lung time outs". You change the rule and what is the incentive to not getting a break? Tactically - if not withing the moral spirit of the sport - it is a great idea.

 

FWIW, the rule changes seem to be working, this tournament had more active wrestling, with a focus on scoring, in every round (save the 149 weight), than I can remember. Heck, I was even excited about the heavyweight final. 

 

Please, please, please, don't suggest rules that go back to a lungs time out is a good rule. Please.

 

 

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Wrestling isn't mma. I enjoy both, but in wrestling guys shouldn't be trying to injure each other. I felt bad for Moisey- that was almost a kneebar and it looked painful.

 

Not sure I feel about the rule. It didn't seem right that Moisey got his knee twisted and was then "punished" for it.

That's what I thought when NT was trying to get out of that position, was pretty much a knee bar.

 

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I think the rule stays....... we have short memories but I can't tell you how many times I saw injuries that were "lung time outs". You change the rule and what is the incentive to not getting a break? Tactically - if not withing the moral spirit of the sport - it is a great idea.

 

FWIW, the rule changes seem to be working, this tournament had more active wrestling, with a focus on scoring, in every round (save the 149 weight), than I can remember. Heck, I was even excited about the heavyweight final. 

 

Please, please, please, don't suggest rules that go back to a lungs time out is a good rule. Please.

 

I don't think we need to go back to lung timeouts.  But, if a knee gets torqued in a weird angle scramble, at the beginning of the match (an NCAA final)...and he screams out in pain...why does he get punished for it?  Especially if it wasn't a position in which he was at risk of losing the point.  Couldn't the refs confer to determine the nature of the stoppage?  It doesn't seem like it should be an all or nothing rule. 

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why not give the officials a chance to say the injury occurred in a dangerous situation and there will be no choice given. this will be relief for some injuries that happen with obvious visual evidence. not a perfect fix, but it brings some common sense into a good rule that sometimes penalizes a legitimately injured wrestler.

 

I say that it is a good rule because it has virtually eliminated the lung timeout.

Edited by sockobuw

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Sockobuw,

 

 

What if the injury didn't occur in a "dangerous situation"? What if someone gets injured as a result of getting worn down and beat up during the match? Are you suggesting that a ref should claim that a perfectly legitimate hold was "dangerous" in order to save the wrestler that was getting dominated?

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The rule is definitely working - remember how many injury timeouts there used to be?  It's unfortunate that people do get hurt and need an injury break but that is MUCH preferable to the old system where timeouts were way too common. 

 

 

why not give the officials a chance to say the injury occurred in a dangerous situation and there will be no choice given. this will be relief for some injuries that happen with obvious visual evidence. not a perfect fix, but it brings some common sense into a good rule that sometimes penalizes a legitimately injured wrestler.

 

I say that it is a good rule because it has virtually eliminated the lung timeout.

 

While I understand the logic here, the black and white nature is why this rule has drastically cut down on injury timeouts.  Once you start giving refs discretion to make a judgement call, you are back to a stalling type situation where nobody is happy. 

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I think the officials could handle a little discretion. one example that still sticks out to me is when st. john kept going at taylor's eyes during the dual their freshman year. taylor almost lost the major because he had to take a timeout. there are several situations that you could bring common sense into play, but I understand the flipside of it.

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I do not like the new injury rule.

 

I did not think there were that many wrestlers abusing injury time for lung time. I think there were fans that thought wrestlers were not injured. I think if the NCAA went back to the year before the change, and interviewed the trainers, I would suspect the report would come back that 90% of the wrestlers were injured.

 

I think the rule changed in reaction to one wrestler who in particular was taking unusual amount of time out for what appeared a need to get his breath. The rule did not need to be changed, the official needed to ask the wrestler immediately what is injured and in the particular case I believe the wrestler would not have had an answer. The official then would warn the wrestler for stalling.

 

If a wrestler signals timeout and does have a reply, while the wrestler is taking the time out the official can review to see if the wrestler was injured as indicated.

 

The new rule is causing wrestlers to not address injuries as they should. If a wrestler is injured, and the trainer addresses the injury, such as taping up the injury before the wrestler returns to the mat, it could prevent lingering issues.  

 

A video review while an injury is being assessed would also help officials to know how to protect wrestlers; to see the potential danger.

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I think the officials could handle a little discretion. one example that still sticks out to me is when st. john kept going at taylor's eyes during the dual their freshman year. taylor almost lost the major because he had to take a timeout. there are several situations that you could bring common sense into play, but I understand the flipside of it.

 

Actually the officials do use a little discretion and I am not sure that is right?  I noticed, and pointed out several times at the NCAA tourney that guys were hurt, slow going back, or even took a little time to recover and the official never gave injury time?  On several occasions I asked people around me, why isn't that injury time?  There was not blood either. Sometimes I think the ref even helped manufacture a small amount of blood to make it "ok".

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I think the officials could handle a little discretion. one example that still sticks out to me is when st. john kept going at taylor's eyes during the dual their freshman year. taylor almost lost the major because he had to take a timeout. there are several situations that you could bring common sense into play, but I understand the flipside of it.

It isn't the rule in that case, it is the official's judgement.

Change the rule because one official didn't call eye pokes??

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good point vak

how many guys purposely hurt a wrestler...to get the extra choice?

there is a thread about snyder and his splits...

and two other Ohio State wrestlers...are the ones involved in the finals (does stieber need to injure someone...no!)

 

now is Ohio state dirty? I did not see it, but enuff ppl have posted on this...to raise a question

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good point vak

how many guys purposely hurt a wrestler...to get the extra choice?

there is a thread about snyder and his splits...

and two other Ohio State wrestlers...are the ones involved in the finals (does stieber need to injure someone...no!)

 

now is Ohio state dirty? I did not see it, but enuff ppl have posted on this...to raise a question

It's Bo Jo and his splits so get your allegations straight.

Steiber didn't injure anyone with intent.  

 

Stop thinking you can legislate a perfect system, it is a waste of time.

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I've been thinking about this for awhile, and it came up twice in the NCAA Finals.

 

I understand the thought process behind giving the non-injured wrestler choice if injury time is called (prevent lung timeouts).  I agree with it for the most part.  And I know that ALL wrestlers who get the choice will take the advantage.  I guess my thought is, in a case like in both finals matches (Moisey and Port), should there be, for lack of a better term, a "gentlemen's agreement" in place for the wrestler to choose neutral?  Both Port and Moisey were legitimately injured, and it felt off that Tomasello and Stieber should benefit from those injuries.  Again, this applies to ALL wrestlers, I know Iowa wrestlers do the same thing, these two examples were just high profile given the NCAA finals.  Further, it should be noted that I didn't think it affected the outcome of each match.

 

Anyway, maybe I'm just rambling.

Good thought Vak!!!

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