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Cooch1

Should 7th and 8th be worth more?

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As I've mentioned before, a DNP with 2 advancing pins (3 + 3 ) gets more respect than an AA 8th without bonus (1+1+.5 + 3 = 5.5) and almost as much as 7th (6.5). Is bonus too heavy or the lower places too light?

 

Personally, I think it's a little of both. Several decades ago the bonus scale was .5, .75., 1.0. Then it was doubled to, I'm guessing, get rid of some of the fractions; now we have 1, 1.5, 2. Pins are no more frequent.

 

I also understand why consolation advancement originally was cut in half, to keep 3rd place from scoring more team points than second or first. But every year "leapfrogs" still happen throughout the 8 places mostly because the distance between consy places has been both decreased and squeezed together: 16----12--10-9--7-6--4-3. This offsets the benefit of the cut made to consy advancement. Even with the large distance between 1st and 2nd, Taylor out pointed Dake, 24-22.

 

People who love bonus for the advantage it gives a team will defend it to the death. But is there such a thing as undue advantage and being overpaid? Would the company president feel good being paid less than the VP?

 

I notice before the tournament starts when people talk about the scoring they tend to focus on bonus. "Its huge, Bonus is huge, It's gonna come down to bonus points!!" But they don't mention AAs or getting a lot of AAs.

 

Would 16-14-12-10-8-6-4-2 and previous bonus, 1, .75, .5 make more sense? A DNP with 2 pins (2+2) can no longer outscore an AA eighth place with decisions (1 + 1 + .5 + 2). And have you ever seen the rungs on a ladder or the markings on a ruler spaced unequally? Are we really dealing with an objective scoring system?

Edited by Cooch1

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bonus is way overvalued in college tournament scoring. a fall is the same as 2 championship side wins and 4 consi. this is the equivalent of a fall being worth 9 and 15 points in a dual, totally disproportioned. hs scoring of 2 and 1 on the advancement make it more reasonable to score a fall as 2 bonus points. I would really like to see bonus cut in half on the backside because you have an opportunity to wrestle more matches and the quality of the opponent is diminished. schopp ran off 7 wins in a row on the backside so he had 3 more chances to score bonus than the guys in the finals.

Edited by sockobuw

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I am fine with a fall being worth twice as much as a normal win.  But right now a winners bracket fall is triple a regular win and it becomes 5 times as much in the losers side.  This is a problem, especially since Saturday morning has a huge amount of medical forfeits.  They need to double the advancement points.

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Have to agree with Boconnell. Tournament bonus + advancement is 2 + 1 for pin (or med forf) = 3;  for tech 1.5 + 1 = 2.5; major 1 + 1 = 2 and advance =1. This ratios out  to 3 to 1 pin; 2.5 to 1 tech and 2 to 1 major. In terms of dual scoring this would look like 9 - 7.5 - 6 - 3. In consolation where advancing is 0.5, equivalent dual scoring would be 15 - 12 - 9 - 3.

 

Try having a dual meet tournament with a pin = 9 in championship bracket and 15 in consolations. That's what official NCAA tournament scoring actually is, but remains hidden by smaller numbers and complex scoring that most people get turned off by.

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Yes, bonus is worth too much.

 

A 3rd place guy who pins his opponents should not earn more points than a champion who doesn't. An injury default on the b side definitely shouldn't be worth 5x a loss. Remember when Iowa just barely beat TOSU and a forfeit in the 7th place match was a big reason why ?

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I think I prefer the HS tournament scoring, same bonus but 2 for champ advancement and 1 for cons advancement. then 16-12-9-7-5-3-2-1 for placing. (although I could see place 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-2.)

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I am fine with a fall being worth twice as much as a normal win.  But right now a winners bracket fall is triple a regular win and it becomes 5 times as much in the losers side.  This is a problem, especially since Saturday morning has a huge amount of medical forfeits.  They need to double the advancement points.

Agreed, good points.

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I think what wrestlingnerd was referring to was the opportunity for bonus to outpace balance or team strength. A couple of hammers like Ruth and Taylor can generate enough bonus to create an AA out of thin air. Six pins/medfor. = 12 bonus points or roughly a non bonus fourth place AA (9 + 3.5).

 

I'd also like to know why bonus wasn't cut in half in consolation like advancement. My guess is "the committee" thinks that would also cut in half the incentive to pin. The incentive to advance wasn't cut in half as far as I can tell.

 

Getting through to the AA podium is hard. Getting 5 or more AAs is really hard! My hats off to the Michigan team; they ended up 11th with 5 AAs !? Either give more value for all that advancement or the low end placers or both.

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I think what wrestlingnerd was referring to was the opportunity for bonus to outpace balance or team strength. A couple of hammers like Ruth and Taylor can generate enough bonus to create an AA out of thin air. Six pins/medfor. = 12 bonus points or roughly a non bonus fourth place AA (9 + 3.5).

 

I'd also like to know why bonus wasn't cut in half in consolation like advancement. My guess is "the committee" thinks that would also cut in half the incentive to pin. The incentive to advance wasn't cut in half as far as I can tell.

 

Getting through to the AA podium is hard. Getting 5 or more AAs is really hard! My hats off to the Michigan team; they ended up 11th with 5 AAs !? Either give more value for all that advancement or the low end placers or both.

 

Agree with almost all the points made. 

 

Bonus (in Consolations) is just too much. When a fall on the backside is worth 4 times as much as the advancement, its just not logical or equitable.

 

As Cooch1 proposes, reducing Bonus by half (similar to advancement points) would "fix" the obvious flaw of the current system to a very large extent.

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I am curious. If the bonus were cut in half on the backside, an idea I am definitely for, or if advancement in the top bracket and bottom were doubled to offset the bonus, would the team totals have resulted in a different order this year?

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RE: LkwdSteve;

A lot of people wonder about the value of the pin and the incentive. It's pretty much understood that when people are paid more money to do the same job, they will do a better job, be happier, etc. But when it comes to the pin there doesn't seem to be any significant difference in frequency of pinning over the years in the NCAA meet even though the value has doubled from 1 to 2 bonus points and from 5 to 6 for a dual pin. My guess is wrestlers don't look at bonus like money or at pinning like a "job." It's what they love and know how to do and will do it for other reasons besides bonus: it's most impressive, has most status, finishes the bout sooner and guarantees the win no matter the score.

 

A long time ago I looked at the results of the 1979 worlds and found quite a few pins even though internationally there is no bonus in tournaments. Maybe it's the touch fall that provides the incentive. It couldn't be bonus--there is none.

 

CEM5202;

The pattern of the scoring has been to increase point values over the years. Once a value become "law" there's no taking it back down. SO if any improvement can be established it'll be to increase advancement. I doubt the top ten would change this year. It's too much of a hassle to rescore it.

 

But you can do your own hypothetical test. Take 3 champs with a total of 12 advancements vs. 9 sevenths each losing in 1/4 finals. Officially the 3 gold will win out, 60-58.5 But double the value of advancement (2:1) and the 9 AAs will move ahead, i.e., w/o bonus, each gold = (2+2+2+2+16) =24 for a total of 72. Each seventh = 2+2 + 1 + 4 = 9 for a total of 81. The reason is obvious: the more placers the more advancement. Official scoring unintentionally denigrates team strength by failing to recognize advancement's importance in reflecting balance. The changes in scoring always seem to be focused on hammer status-- first place and pinning--then we throw crumbs to the rest. Note the drop off in the place values, 16-12-10-9.....First place w/advancement is worth 20 points (16 + 4) and eighth is 5.5, almost 4X difference. Yet the difference on average between 1st and 8th is usually a decision. This is another one of those 'unrealistic differences' in tourney scoring to go along with lower places ( leapfrogs) cranking out more points than higher places-- and invisible AAs generated by more pin - med forf opportunities in consolation.

 

How can a system be reliable to measure team balance if the system itself is off balance?

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"As I've mentioned before, a DNP with 2 advancing pins (3 + 3 ) gets more respect than an AA 8th without bonus (1+1+.5 + 3 = 5.5) and almost as much as 7th (6.5). Is bonus too heavy or the lower places too light?"

 

The scoring system should be changed to rectify this.  Placing 7th or 8th should be worth more to a team than a DNP with 2 pins.  I do think pinfalls/techs/majors should be bonus, so perhaps the 7th & 8th place points should be increased? 

I like that pinfalls/techs/majors keep their value in wrestlebacks, it rewards guys going for the win and it keeps the strength of a guy dropping down whether it is in the pigtails or semis and it rewards the objective - the pinfall (even though to many that seems like a lost art that will be appearing on the next episode of Ancient Aliens). 

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