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judaspriest

How about Edinboro?

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Josh Koskeck and Gregor Gillespi both were NCAA champs and neither were anything close to being blue chip recruits out of high school. Koscheck was a 4x AA and GG I think AA 3xs. Also, Jarred KIng was #1 at 160 coming out of high school, went to Oklahoma and never AA (shoulder issues) but transfered to Edinboro and Was a NCAA champ as a junior and placed 3rd as a senior. As for Mitchell Port and AJ Schopp they were both 1x PA state champs. AJ won 135 AA his senior year, the AAA state champ that year was Josh Deziwa. Deziwa was ranked #1 in the country and Schopp was 7th. Who had the better career? Deziwa at Iowa or Schopp at Edinboro?

 

 

 

Nice work there, greenmt. Looks like Flynn did more for Schopp at Edinboro than Brands did for Dziewa at Iowa. 

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Even though this is an old topic there is something to be considered.  People love to bash Iowa just because they have high expectations and fell short. .In reality at the beginning of the year most people thought OSU would win and they   did. Iowa made a good run at it.  Edinboro made a great effort, but still behind Iowa and OSU.  That is it people, those three teams did a great job and comparing them is just going to cause a fight.  Edinboro finished well and now they should raise the bar. It doesn't matter what your money situation or location is, to win you have to score more points.

 

 

 

teach, I think nationally Ohio State was the pick, however on this msg. board the sentiment swung pretty heavily in favor of Iowa. I was in the middle of most of those threads. I picked Ohio State. MSU158 also picked them, as did a few others. But many more picked Iowa here on themat forums. 

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Bloate,

 

The reason I was banned is quite simple: a lot of people complained to the moderator about my posts. Rather than respond to my arguments with counterarguments that were well supported with facts and reasoning, they decided to take the easy way out and go complain to the mods. Contrary to popular belief, I did not get banned due to any type of inappropriate behavior or rule violation. That is a fact. The forum moderator Richard Immmel can confirm that fact for you.

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Greenmt.,

 

 

Remember Gregor Gillespie placed 3rd at senior nationals behind Dustin Schlatter and Brent Metcalf.. I don't think it's accurate to say that Gillespie was nowhere close to being a blue chip recruit. Gillespie was a solid pickup for Edinboro.

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Greenmt.,

 

 

Remember Gregor Gillespie placed 3rd at senior nationals behind Dustin Schlatter and Brent Metcalf.. I don't think it's accurate to say that Gillespie was nowhere close to being a blue chip recruit. Gillespie was a solid pickup for Edinboro.

 

No, that doesn't work.  What was Gregor's high school ranking?  That was YOUR question now you're changing the criteria.  

 

Gregor was not a top 100 recruit in Intermat's rankings coming out of high school.  There is the answer to your question about his ranking.  Matt Brown was ranked #88 coming out of high school.  So there's an answer to you question about someone that Edinboro's coach has made into a National Champ from a lower ranking than Matt Brown.

 

Those are based upon facts.

Edited by sbdude

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Sbdude,

 

Is intermat the only ranking service? And I'm not changing the criteria on anything, I was simply addressing a point made by Greenmt. I'm not a HS ranking expert, but I find it hard to believe that Gillespie wasn't one of the top ranked 145 pounders in the country after senior nationals. That is if they even update the rankings after senior nationals. At senior nationals, Gillespie beat the #50 recruit Joseph Cornejo. I'd imagine that would put Gillespie in the top 100, but I don't know.

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i'd like someone that was banned to stay gone or be banned again.

 

I'd like you to quit being such a PA homer in your rankings but that is not happening either.

 

(kidding)

Edited by stp

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Sbdude,

 

Is intermat the only ranking service? And I'm not changing the criteria on anything, I was simply addressing a point made by Greenmt. I'm not a HS ranking expert, but I find it hard to believe that Gillespie wasn't one of the top ranked 145 pounders in the country after senior nationals. That is if they even update the rankings after senior nationals. At senior nationals, Gillespie beat the #50 recruit Joseph Cornejo. I'd imagine that would put Gillespie in the top 100, but I don't know.

 

You asked for an opinion based upon facts and you got one.   Just because you don't like it and it doesn't fit your agenda, doesn't make it any less true.

 

If you would like to refute that opinion, please do so but provide the facts upon which you have based your opinion. 

 

(see how that works?)

 

As an aside to your comments about Gregor's ranking.  I know another kid that also finished 3rd at Senior Nationals and he was ranked in the 90's by one service and not ranked in the top 100 by another so it's not unreasonable to consider that Gregor could have been ranked outside the top 100.  Ryan Mango was pretty accomplished in high school and was ranked #100 coming out of high school by Intermat.

Edited by sbdude

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It's obvious. DUH.

 

Any program that does not win a team championship, or produce Olympians/ multi-time national champs has a failure of coach. (Let's ignore Shawn Bunch's impressive run on the Senior-level)

 

This failure is compounded when said coach has the audacity to articulate his objective to win a national championship and falls short (it's not like Missouri, Minnesota, Michigan, Virginia Tech, Illinois, Penn State, Oklahoma State and Nebraska, teams that finished behind Edinboro, all set national championships as a goal every single year. Oh wait, they do? LOSERS)

 

We should dismiss out of hand any arguments in favor the coach in question which appeal to his accomplishments relative to situation, i.e. scholarship money, facilities, budget, name recognition and things like the fact that Edinboro University of Pennsylvania is a school designed to service residents of a sparsely-populated corner of a single state, yet despite this and an athletic department designed for NCAA Division II-level competition, the school's wrestling program routinely outperforms program's from ultra-prestigious name-brand national Universities with Athletic Departments that have annual expenditures which dwarf the annual operating expenditures of all of Edinboro University.

 

Those arguments are just excuses in disguise, and excuses are for losers.

 

Though you may be tempted to refer to Rider's BJ Clagon as "All-American" BJ Clagon or "5th in the nation" BJ Clagon, we should only refer to him as "freshman" BJ Clagon. We want to avoid obfuscation.

 

We definitely should point out how Cael Sanderson made a national champion out of the totally under-the-radar recruit in Matt Brown. This amazing bit of overachieving is due to Brown's Intermat ranking of 88 in the country (as in, he was rated the 88th best wrestling recruit, at any weight, out of the the half a million or so high school wrestlers in the country. He clearly sucked before Sanderson got his hands on him.)

 

Be sure not to mention Intermat top 100 Sanderson recruits like #7 Jake Kemmerer, #34 Sam Sherlock, #52 Hank Stinson and #64 Dirk Cowburn, who never had any accomplishments of note on the national level. They do not count. DEFINITELY do not mention the Altons.

 

Oh yes, don't you dare bring Tom Ryan into this discussion. After all, by any reasonable standard he is the only truly successful head wrestling coach in all of NCAA Division I in 2014-2015, and he has neeeeeevvvveeer had a big-time recruit underachieve. (every other coach in the nation this year was a total failure, take off the kid gloves). 

 

Finally, when someone brings up the fact that Tim Flynn (the loser coach) has made national champions out of not one, but two wrestlers ranked not only lower than Matt Brown, but outside of the top 100 (Koscheck never made it to a state finals), we cannot fail to point out that the Intermat rankings are invalid because NHSCA nationals are the be all and end all, and Gregor Gillespie placed 3rd. Also conveniently forget that we relied on Matt Brown's intermat ranking to point out what a great job Sanderson did with him in the first place. (also, let's interchangeably appeal to overall recruit ranking and national weight class rankings. They are totally the same thing.)

 

Wow. I have no idea why I stopped posting on these boards.

Edited by superfluidity

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I have to say, if people are really that upset about stupid stuff said on this or any forum, then move on.  If I just want to talk wrestling with people that agree with me, I'll talk to my wife.  I read this stuff because it makes me laugh, get mad, learn and write back.  I think All the top three teams had great years, some of the teams that placed 23 had pretty darn good years.  A coach being truly great is really much more than winning, just have a son involved in the program, you will probably agree.  If you want to discuss the great "winning" coaches, they have to win.

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Teach, suggesting that winning isn't everything may be a far to radical concept to share here. May I suggest something less controversial, like saying, " Edinboro had the best looking singlets at the tournament".

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I believe it comes down to resources.

 

To begin, check out this link that triple posted one year ago tomorrow: http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/6277-ncaa-d1-funding-by-the-numbers/. Off the top, Iowa's wrestling budget for whatever year (I am guessing 2014) was $1,652,195. They ranked second in the NCAA in terms of money spent on their program. Edinboro, by contrast, ranked 51st and spent $525,848 on their program in one year. Basic math tells us that Iowa spends more than triple in one year on their wrestling team than Edinboro does.

 

Also, don't forget that Edinboro doesn't have a secondary resource like the Hawkeye Wrestling Club to not only bring in extra staff members to improve their guys, but extra funding to assist the program. Those numbers aren't recorded in this budget, whether it be extra "coaches" or funding.

 

Since, Flynn took over the program in the 1997-98 season, only five teams have won the NCAA championships (Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma State, Penn State and now Ohio State). In that time, Flynn's teams have never finished lower than 18th and in nine of those years the Fighting Scots have finished ninth or higher. He has had 37 All-Americans, 11 finalists and 3 champs. Not bad for a school that is bursting at the seems with a reported enrollment of less than 6,000 students.

 

Here are some other schools on the list who spend more on their wrestling teams and haven't had the success that Edinboro has had since Flynn took over. You're not calling out their coaching staffs with a fraction of the vigor in which you're going after Flynn:

 

Spending ranking/School/State/Annual budget/Conference/undergrad enrollment/All-Americans/Finalists/Champs (since 1997-98)

12 Arizona State University AZ $1,045,074 PAC 12 66,309 28 4 2

14 Oregon State University OR $1,035,136 PAC 12 30,058 14 0 0

18 Rider University NJ $941,663 EWL 3,850 5 0 0

19 Hofstra University NY $931,543 EIWA 6,922 21 0 0

22 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus PA $915,262 ACC 18,371 17 4 1

23 American University DC $849,013 EIWA 7,083 16 2 1

24 North Carolina State University at Raleigh NC $824,514 ACC 24,536 6 3 3

25 University of Maryland-College Park MD $811,829 BIG 10 27.056 12 1 0

26 Drexel University PA $765,843 EIWA 14,108 2 0 0

27 Old Dominion University VA $758,923 MAC 19,819 7 1 0

29 Michigan State University MI $756,238 BIG 10 38,000 21 2 1

30 Indiana University-Bloomington IN $753,691 BIG 10 32,371 21 4 3

31 Bucknell University PA $749,703 EIWA 3,532 4 0 0 - Bucknell had no program from 2002-03 through 2005-06

33 Ohio University-Main Campus OH $745,450 MAC 17,000+ 10 3 1

36 University of Wyoming WY $679,603 WWC 12,702 8 0 0

37 Rutgers University-New Brunswick NJ $670,851 BIG 10 41,565 3 0 0

39 University of Northern Iowa IA $630,201 MAC 12,159 23 4 1

41 Stanford University CA $583,975 PAC 12 7,061 14 3 1

45 Northern Illinois University IL $567,917 MAC 15,814 6 1 0

 

As you can clearly see, most programs have had a fraction of the success Edinboro has had with Flynn as the head coach, but outspend him by tens of thousands of dollars annually, at the very least.

 

In the end, by the numbers alone, I'd say that Edinboro--Flynn, Moore, Sponseller and Baumbartner--is doing amazing things with what very little they have, especially as it relates to the majority of the 50 programs that outspend them each year.

Edited by Tofurky

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Teach, suggesting that winning isn't everything may be a far to radical concept to share here. May I suggest something less controversial, like saying, " Edinboro had the best looking singlets at the tournament".

 

I'm not really suggesting that winning isn't everything, it is.  What I'm saying is there are different ways of judging greatness.  If winning is the most important, then you have to win to be great no matter what.  If we want to discuss other ways of being great, there are lots of them and many of the top 25 teams achieved that last weekend.

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There are so many differences that make Edinboro's team and hardware run-especially this year-so impressive-many have been stated-What a Div II school overcomes to even have a semi successful Div I Wrestling program is difficult and quite impressive.  In addition to being completely underfunded and have poor facilities (compared to everyone elses state of the art upgrades) other students and many of the Edinboro community have no clue about these wrestlers whatsoever!  Edinboro returns with their highest finish ever to what??  No welcome back parade, no party, no fanfare, no nothin'!!  Those guys get up and go to class like every other wrestler in top 25 programs but they get very little recognition for it.  Sure Bruce may be the AD but anyone who knows Bruce knows he is a great guy, an extremely fair man, but he is Not a politician asking for extra for His sport, just Not his style whatsoever!  He treats all coaches and sports as well as he can but it is  also  very equal and at a Div II school-which compared to Div I, isn't really that great.  Edinboro Wrestling is great!  They overcome a Lot!  And Tim Flynn is an incredible leader and coach.  He definitely does the most with the least~~

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Teach, suggesting that winning isn't everything may be a far to radical concept to share here. May I suggest something less controversial, like saying, " Edinboro had the best looking singlets at the tournament".

 

Oh and by the way, Edinboro does have great singlets!   Maybe the last year for singlets?

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Maybe the last year for singlets?

The two piece singlets have been permitted for years by the NCAA. I can only remember a few teams ever using them. I think The Citadel used them for a year.

 

Per NCAA Rules:

1.12 Uniforms

Mandatory competition equipment shall conform to the following guidelines:

 

1.12.1 Uniform. The uniform shall consist of either a one-piece singlet that may

be worn with or without full-length tights, or a spandex/lycra-type shirt and

shorts.

 

1.12.1.1 Singlet. A singlet covering the upper torso shall not be cut away in

excess of the uniform pictured in Illustration Nos. 1, 2 and 3. Specifically,

the front and back of the singlet shall not be cut lower than the armpit.

Under the arms, the singlet shall not be cut lower than half the distance

between the armpit and the belt-line. The outermost garment shall have a

minimum inseam length of 4 inches and shall not extend beyond the top

of the knees. (See Illustration Nos. 1, 2 and 3.)

 

1.12.1.2 Spandex/lycra. The shirt shall be a T-shirt style form-fitted,

sleeveless or short-sleeved and shall not cover or extend beyond the

elbow. In addition, the length of the shirt must be longer than the torso to

prevent the shirt from becoming untucked. The shirt shall remain tucked

into the shorts at all times during competition. The shorts shall be formfitting

with a minimum 4-inch inseam and shall not extend beyond the top

of the knees. (See Illustration No. 4.)

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"or a spandex/lycra-type shirt and
shorts."

 

I don't mean to start a new topic here but why do they have to be spandex/lycra type?  That is the problem to begin with.  Many college wrestlers and most HS wrestlers don't wear spandex in practice.

 

Plaid spandex would still look good! (just to bring it back to Edinboro)

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Habat would have still been seeded 3rd if he pinned Clagon in the finals. Also, I don't consider the qualifiers as regular season.

 

MSU, you said that "Habat was seeded 3rd with ONLY one loss". That's not true, I was responding to that. Remember you told me to get my facts straight.

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But you said he was seeded down because of multiple losses during the season.  That is not so.  He was seeded third due to his ONE loss to Tsirtsis.

 

How do you know that? I just thought it was funny that you told me to get my facts straight while you yourself didn't have your facts straight.

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