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fadzaev2

Greatest top wrestlers all-time, not counting leg wrestlers

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I don't think we could really say. what was the difference between july and nov.....???? tsargush is probably the only guy who could make a fair assessment. the only thing I can say is that it wasn't the world champion tsargush from London 2012 until some point leading up to worlds last fall. these guys wrestled him in july of 2013 and nov of 2013. we don't really need to debate this because we will get to see this spring and summer. let's just hope everyone stays healthy because it will be fun to watch.

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was also thinking that Ed Ruth looked pretty tough to get away from...ready to cradle at a moment's notice.

 

 

Not in any order, I'll start this off....

 

 

Logan Stieber

 

Wade Schalles

 

Gene Mills

 

Dan Gable

wa

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I can't believe we haven't mentioned Cael Sanderson

 

I mentioned him Big Apple. Like many greats, Sanderson is somewhat "penalized" for being too good. This trend seems to be increasing at an exponential rate. At least that's how it seems to me.

 

#Exaltthewinners

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I don't think we could really say. what was the difference between july and nov.....???? tsargush is probably the only guy who could make a fair assessment. the only thing I can say is that it wasn't the world champion tsargush from London 2012 until some point leading up to worlds last fall. these guys wrestled him in july of 2013 and nov of 2013. we don't really need to debate this because we will get to see this spring and summer. let's just hope everyone stays healthy because it will be fun to watch.

 

Sockobuw, we have no reason to believe that Tsargush was a different wrestler the time Dake beat him than he was at the time Taylor beat him. Of course, technically we could say that we don't know what level Tsargush was at when he faced both, but you can technically say anything. Maybe Tsargush was wrestling better than he was at the 2010 worlds when Dake beat him? Technically that's possible, right?

 

Whether you know it or not, you nearly perfectly demonstrate the common attitude of Taylor supporters. Whenever a piece of data comes in that favors Dake it is always explained away as inconclusive or not significant in some way shape or form. The arguments that favor Taylor aren't usually treated the same way. 

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Sockobuw,

 

It seems like you believe that Taylor got a significantly better Tsargush than Dake did. You may need want to explicitly say this, but your posts seem to (to me) imply it. If Taylor is shut out 0-8 and Dake was able to come 2 points away from winning by techfall.

 

Again, this is what you originally said: "not going to argue one side of the fence or the other, but international results or any results can be decieving. Tsargush wasn't wrestling well when he wrestled Taylor or Dake". 

 

If Tsargush wasn't wrestling well when he wrestled Dake and Taylor, that doesn't really change anything relevant to my original point. My focus was on Dake in comparison to Taylor. Taylor wasn't able to score a single point against the Tsargush that "wasn't wrestling well", but Dake was able to beat him 10-5 and was two points from winning by tech. The only way that this piece of data is not relevant is if you believe that they were wrestling essentially two different wrestlers. The results of the matches were almost completely different. That's a 13 point swing between the two matches.

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Will Dake ever finish ahead of Taylor on one of these lists? Imo Dake is easily the very best top guy on that list. Since 2002, I would put Dake and Sanderson at the top of the list. They could ride when it absolutely counted the most: the ncaas. None of those other guys on your list can say the same. 

 

If you were to put Dake and Taylor against the very best competition there was all time, I believe Dake would consistently outperform Taylor in all areas. Dake was simply a better technician than Taylor. I made this point a while ago. Again If you raise the competition to the highest level, Dake would outshine Taylor. Many took issue with that statement, but then the Tsargush result happened.

 

Two time world champion (at the time) Tsargush's matches against Taylor/Dake:

 

Tsargush techfall Taylor 8-0.

 

Dake over Tsargush 10-5 (2 points away from a tech)

 

Many were suprised when this happened, but not I. This is why I believe that nearly any list that puts Taylor over Dake is way off. Dake's level of performance against the very best in the biggest moments must be considered. It can be very difficult being great, many times people undervalue your skill because you were so good. Imo, one of the biggest myths of the past 10 or so years is that Askren was the best scrambler of his generation, or at least in the top tier. I strongly disagree with that, both Dake and Sanderson were levels above Askren in that department. Askren was overly reliant on the scramble since his wrestling from his feet was so poor. He found himself in more scrambles because in many cases that's where he needed to be. Sanderson didn't have to wrestle that way, but when he did, he almost (if not always) won. Same with Dake. 

 

I guess I'm getting off topic now so I'll stop here!!!

 

 

 

Good post and I mostly agree, other than the Tsargush example for supporting your point.   Let us not forget Burroughs teched Dake while Taylor had him on the ropes at the US Open.  If they wrestle more times I think we can take more from it but a single match is't enough to draw a conclusion from.   I'd expect Taylor to perform much better the next time out against Tsargush, much like we saw Dake improve against Burroughs.   Head to head i am convinced Dake was better, prior to injury.   

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Kilgore would hook the ankle then go into the Navy Ride both from on top and as a single leg finish. If he got called for stalling on top, he would usually put the bottom guy into a farside cradle, get his 3-point nearfall then going back to riding. Many of his matches would be 7-2 with about 7 minutes of riding time. His standing switch was so good that by his junior year when he wrestled in Bedlam and stoodup, the OSU fans be yelling "cut him" because they knew he'd soon get a reversal and 3 nearfall. His switch on the mat was good too. Wade Schalles was flown in by Abel to wrestle in the 1973 Oklahoma Open. Wade told me he wouldn't try to ride Rod, because he'd put you on your back with his switch. Wade said he'd take his chances on his feet. Rod admitted to Gary Breece his teammate that Schalles was the only guy he wrestled he didn't think he could beat. That no matter what he tried Wade would have an answer for it.

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I can't stand oldsuper but he is getting the best of sock.  I am huge Taylor fan but how in the heck can anyone say Taylor is better than Dake??

I'm a fan of both of them, and I think it's all yet to be determined....again, their finals match was 5-4 Dake on riding time.  There could be a different outcome everyday......lot's of wrestling left to find out.  Could be soon!!!

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I'm a fan of both, bigger fan of Taylor because he wrestled a more exciting style. Head to head results count Dake is better until proven otherwise. Guys like these two are why 163 has been the best weight class for US since Bill Smith won the 1952 Olympcs.

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I'm a fan of both, bigger fan of Taylor because he wrestled a more exciting style. Head to head results count Dake is better until proven otherwise. Guys like these two are why 163 has been the best weight class for US since Bill Smith won the 1952 Olympcs.

There is truth to the "163"...Blubaugh, Wayne Wells, Dziedzic, Kemp, Schultz, Monday, Slay and Burroughs....WOW!

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I assume Rick Sanders was an absolute animal on top, considering the 'folkstyle' arrsenal he utilized at the olympics, though i never had the chance to see his NCAA matches.

 

 

Sanders had some funny stuff, including stepping up with his outside foot to bait the bottom wrestling into hooking it with his arm. That was the position where Sanders reportedly said "He doesn't have my leg, I've got his arm."  Then he would put a half nelson in the far side and crank, or hit a mousetrap style move. 

 

I'm guessing that perhaps Owings belongs on this list somewhere. 

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I'm a fan of both of them, and I think it's all yet to be determined....again, their finals match was 5-4 Dake on riding time.  There could be a different outcome everyday......lot's of wrestling left to find out.  Could be soon!!!

A different outcome everyday???........... there have been SEVERAL "days" that that have had the SAME outcome. The vast majority of clear thinkers imo come down on Dakes side. Taylor may still eventually come out on top. But to this point I simply can't see the argument going DT's way.

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I'm a fan of both of them, and I think it's all yet to be determined....again, their finals match was 5-4 Dake on riding time.  There could be a different outcome everyday......lot's of wrestling left to find out.  Could be soon!!!

Fadzaev2, why do you act as if Dake and Taylor have only wrestled one match? Dake has beaten Taylor 5 times. Taylor is 0-5 vs. Dake. He had plenty of times to reverse the result and he hasn't. It's quite comical that you mention that there could be a "different result everyday". Again another hypothetical argument from a Taylor fan. If you were to eliminate all of the hypothetical arguments made by Taylor fans in this "debate" they wouldn't have much left to say.

 

Also, do you believe that the Ncaa final was as close as the score indicated? I know many who believe that the stalling call that Taylor was rewarded was a horrible call. Ive heard more people use the words "controlled" or "dominant" to describe the match than I've heard "close", "nail biter" or any word or phrase that would leave you to believe that the match wasn't largely a one-sided affair.

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