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Natural is anything that Nature permits regardless of what we have been taught. For example, Nature doesn't permit you go on living if you jump off the Empire State building. You are not permitted to swim at the bottom of the ocean without technical support. You are permitted to make love to anyone who wants to reciprocate.

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Oldsuperold has a stupid question in nearly everyone of his comments. Troll of trolls. He loves getting a rise out of people. Odd fella

 

What stupid question did I ask here? I've asked nothing controversial here that's not already been asked or discussed for decades or more by some of the most learned people on the planet. By some of the brightest individuals who've ever lived in fact.

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Natural is anything that Nature permits regardless of what we have been taught. For example, Nature doesn't permit you go on living if you jump off the Empire State building. You are not permitted to swim at the bottom of the ocean without technical support. You are permitted to make love to anyone who wants to reciprocate.

 

We are pretty much on the same page here Cooch1. Nature doesn't care what anyone thinks or believes. There are certain things that are inborn for certain individuals that the majority absolutely detest.

Edited by oldsuper

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The problem with quoting the Old Testament is then you are essentially stating that you believe in sending bears to eat children, human sacrifice, killing men for refusing to sleep with their dead brother's widow, genocide, turning men's wives into piles of salt out of spite, and destroying entire towns.  Every one of those things is condoned by the Old Testament.

 

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say "Love one another, so long as they're not gay, as I have loved you, but not in a gay way, though."

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Ok super/4444 (I think you are the same person).  We get your position on the topic.  Time to move on.   I believe the most important lesson here is that other gay high school and college wrestlers are not alone.   Hopefully coaches at all levels will take note and impart to their kids that bullying and locker room harassment is completely unacceptable.  I would hate to read of some kid committing suicide because of harassment.

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I gave up reading after two pages, but I have to comment again. Religion is under attack here. That in my opinion is good thing. Religion is poison. It is the opposite of being like Christ. Who did Jesus hang out with? That's right outcasts, publicans....( not republicans, but some do fit the mold) sinners. Who did he have his beef with? That's right, the religious dudes of his day. If you go back and read the main point you will clearly see that we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Oh yeah and love our neighbor  as ourselves. That covers EVERTHING! More religious folks need to pray that they themselves are transformed to the image of Christ, then it will be easy to help our fellow man...

 There is one potential downside to all of this however. Since gays tend to have an overall higher income than non-gays, The potential for new interest in wrestling could create higher ticket prices in NYC next March. That might create a covetous spirit amongst heterosexual wrestling fans. Geez I better get cracking and get my tickets bought.

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The problem with quoting the Old Testament is then you are essentially stating that you believe in sending bears to eat children, human sacrifice, killing men for refusing to sleep with their dead brother's widow, genocide, turning men's wives into piles of salt out of spite, and destroying entire towns.  Every one of those things is condoned by the Old Testament.

 

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say "Love one another, so long as they're not gay, as I have loved you, but not in a gay way, though."

 

How far are you going to push that argument Jason L. Jackson? Anyone who knows history knows that Jesus quoted from the Old Testament frequently. His followers called him Rabbi. If you acknowledge that there were prohibitions against homosexual practice in the Old Testament, then you'd have to admit that Jesus was against homosexual practice since according to religious tradition) the prohibitions came from God himself. And Jesus was constantly talking about the moral character of this God in the highest of terms. The God who he said you are supposed to love with all you heart and mind and "give your life to" was, in fact, the God of the Old Testament. He even quotes directly from many if not all of those books that you mentioned with those peculiar stories. 

 

If anyone who believes the Old Testaments moral character is in question, then Jesus' is too. He's not "off the hook" by any stretch of the imagination, for he condoned the very same things. Historical revisionism is the only escape imo, but if you have to revise something that much in the first place in order to "save it", why not do the much easier thing and just drop the entire belief? That seems like the most intellectually honest thing to do.

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Religion is not, and, should not, be under attack.  The use of religion as a convenient and lazy excuse to attack someone and call them mentally ill, that is what is under attack.

 

Except sometimes religion does in fact teach those things. The line that we're being fed today by much of the mainstream media has no basis in reality. Sometimes religion orders people to be jailed, stoned, or even murdered.

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My response would be that Jesus taught from the Old Testament what he thought was right to teach and quote.  If homosexuality was so wrong, then clearly Jesus would have, at some point, specifically mentioned it as a sin, as against God, as immoral.  But he didn't.  Not once.  Never.  Interesting.

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Ok super/4444 (I think you are the same person).  We get your position on the topic.  Time to move on.   I believe the most important lesson here is that other gay high school and college wrestlers are not alone.   Hopefully coaches at all levels will take note and impart to their kids that bullying and locker room harassment is completely unacceptable.  I would hate to read of some kid committing suicide because of harassment.

 

I'm certainly not 444, I can already tell you we're coming from completely different worldviews. You've likely never met anyone who's more secular than I am. Secular to a fault since I hold some beliefs that I know people here would utterly detest since they are likely more influenced by their Judeo Christian beliefs far more than they know.

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Super, this isn't a religious forum.   The story was about one person's struggle to come out to his parents and best friend and the issues surrounding that struggle.  No one wants to hear or read your religious views on the topic.

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My response would be that Jesus taught from the Old Testament what he thought was right to teach and quote.  If homosexuality was so wrong, then clearly Jesus would have, at some point, specifically mentioned it as a sin, as against God, as immoral.  But he didn't.  Not once.  Never.  Interesting.

 

Which is a non response. Because not only did he not quote from these particular books, he extolled the moral goodness of this god of the Old Testament in the highest of terms. 

 

Also, did Jesus preach against rape? If he didn't does that mean he believed it was okay? Or did he not mention it because everyone of his day already knew that it was immoral in the first place?

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My response would be that Jesus taught from the Old Testament what he thought was right to teach and quote. If homosexuality was so wrong, then clearly Jesus would have, at some point, specifically mentioned it as a sin, as against God, as immoral. But he didn't. Not once. Never. Interesting.

Jason....see if you can understand this....

 

 

"By and large, the American culture is aggressively promoting the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. In the midst of such pressure, many people who call themselves Christians are caving in and accepting this perverted lifestyle in spite of God’s clear teachings against it (Butt, 2003). Just recently, the country singer Carrie Underwood stated that her Christian faith lead her to support gay marriage (Nilles, 2012). In truth, the life and teachings of Jesus Christ could never be accurately understood to lead a person to conclude that homosexual marriage is moral (Miller and Harrub, 2004).

 

One of the most common arguments made in support of homosexuality is that Jesus Christ did not explicitly condemn the practice. Supposedly, since Jesus never stated specifically: “Homosexuality is a sin,” then His failure to denounce the lifestyle can be interpreted to mean that He approved of it. This reasoning is riddled with error.

 

First, Jesus explained to His followers that He did not have time to teach them everything they needed to know. He told them that the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance all that He had taught, and would include additional teaching that He had not had time to cover. He told His disciples: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:12-13). When we look to the inspired writings of the New Testament, we see the authors boldly and specifically condemning the practice based on the revelation they received from the Holy Spirit (Miller and Harrub, 2004). Thus, it is wrong to suggest that only the “words in red” are Jesus’ teachings. On the contrary, He foretold that more teaching would be done after His return to heaven due to the fact that the apostles “could not bear” all of it at the time.

 

Second, even if Jesus did not explicitly condemn the practice (though He actually did, as will be noted later), that certainly could not be used as evidence that He condoned the practice. For instance, where does Jesus explicitly state that bestiality is wrong? Where in the New Testament does Jesus state that polygamy is wrong? Where are the “words in red” that specifically condemn pedophilia? Are we to suppose that the Son of God condoned using crystal meth because there is not an explicit statement from Jesus’ mouth that says “do not smoke crystal meth?” The idea that silence from Jesus on a subject means He approved of or condoned the practice cannot be substantiated.

 

Finally, it must be considered that Jesus did, in fact, speak against homosexuality. On numerous occasions, Jesus condemned the sins of adultery (Matthew 19:18), sexual immorality (Matthew 19:9) and fornication (Matthew 15:19). These terms describe any type of sexual intercourse that is not within the confines of a marriage ordained by God. Jesus then proceeded to define exactly what God views as a morally permissible marriage. He stated:

 

Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh”? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate (Matthew 19:4-6).

 

By defining marriage as between one male and one female, Jesus effectively condemned all other arrangements, including but not limited to one man and two women, one woman and two men, three men and one woman, three men and three women, one man and one man, one woman and one animal, etc. You can see the overwhelming logic of such. For Jesus to have to explicitly condemn every assortment of genders and numbers would be absurd. When He defined marriage between one man and one woman, He clearly showed that such an arrangement is the only one authorized by God.

 

Several years ago a man named Cory Moore “legally married his 2004 Cherry ES-335” Gibson guitar (“Man Marries Guitar,” 2007). He said: “The day I got her, I just knew she was the one…. I know it seems weird, but I really love her—like, really love her, with all my heart. I just wanted to make it official” (2007). Are we to conclude that because Jesus never specifically condemned a man marrying his guitar then the Son of God approved of such? To ask is to answer. In 2006, 41-year-old Sharon Tendler married a dolphin (“Woman Marries Dolphin,” 2006). Jesus never said one word explicitly about refraining from marrying a dolphin. Does that mean His “silence” should be viewed as approval? Not in any way.

 

Homosexuality is a sin. It always has been, and it always will be. The inspired New Testament writers repeatedly teach that to be the case. Jesus explained that the Holy Spirit would bring to the inspired writers information that they could not handle at the time of His departing. In addition, Jesus did explicitly define marriage as being between one man and one woman. The ruse to suggest that Jesus approves of homosexuality because He never expressly condemned it cannot be sustained logically, nor can it be defended on any type of moral grounds. The person who presumes to claim to be a Christian, and yet supports homosexuality, misunderstands the teachings of Christ and needs to repent and stop approving of a perverted, destructive practice that Jesus condemns (Matthew 19:1-9)."

Edited by CollegeWrestling4444

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What's there to tolerate?

 

Someone makes a decision to CHOOSE a certain lifestyle that isn't natural or moral and we have to treat them as special or brave????

 

Its sad more then anything that this behavior is being accepted as ok. It's not ok.

 

I see the hate driven taliban Christian type has weighed in. I go the other way on this...... why would anyone want to be part of a sect of Christianity that is hateful.

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