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GoNotQuietly

Greatest top wrestlers all-time, International version

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Inspired by fadzaev2's College forum thread about guys who were brutal on top.

 

something a lot of us i'm sure think is sorely laking on team U.S. is par-terre offense.

 

Who was the best (U.S. or otherwise)

 

 

I'll start (no order):

 

B. Saitiev: The 'west-point' trapped arm he does is virtually unstoppable, and he could do a thousand other things to turn you

Dave Schultz: made Nate Carr scream and then stuck him with that viscious leg ride.

Rick Sanders: The original funk king; completely unpredicatable and always looking to score

John Smith: non-stop laces and legs

Karelin /  Lopez: They should make the competitors in World's Strongest Man try to lift eachother like that.

Kudukhov/ Batirov : abusive

 

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Not the flashiest but Lopez is one of the most consistent in scoring from top. Sadulaev could be near the top of the list before long.

 

Sushil Kumars leg ride series is a joy to watch also. One of the few "pinners" in freestyle. Adam Saitiev had done highlight reel falls too though often from feet to back.

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Starts and ends with karelin.

He was the best...maybe.  I actually think Valentin Jordanov was better with his technique and pound-for-pound one of the strongest wrestlers I have ever seen.  He would do the reverse lift and take that into a turk. If he was on top, he could hook the legs in ways never seen before or since.  He was the Barishnikov or Mozart of wrestling, particularly on top.  Any freestyle wrestling list without Jordanov is a lacking list 

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good point. i forgot to add jordanov to my list fighting for second. he could turn the best in the world with an arsenal of essentially folkstlye moves. turks, x wrist rolls, 1 on 1 rides, and so on.

I don't think he's fighting for second personally. More like both methods were perfect for their respective weight classes and styles.  Jordanov turned and beat Belaglozov, Dietrich, Satoh, ZJones, Majid Torkan, Kim-Yong Sik, Saban Trstena, Toshio Asakura, and Abdullayev off the top of my head...all world or Olympic Champions. He pinned Abdullayev once(The guy who beat Henson for gold), and beat him many other times with turns. He major'd with turns the others, except Anatoli Belaglozov, whom he still scored 10 points on in his victory.  He turned and pinned or major decisioned 9 world or Olympic champs.  And his losses were to some very very good wrestlers.  That weight at Jordanov's time was spectacular.  

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I'm guessing most of you didn't see Dan Gable and Wayne Wells wrestle in the 1972 Olympics or they would have been mentioned. Danny Hodge applied the 3/4 nelson on the Soviet after he'd been screwed by the referee against the Pole. The Soviets got it declared an inhumane hold after the Olympics. Dan told me he could have turned him without hooking the leg, but that he wanted to tortue him for awhile.

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great points. however, because karelin was so dominant, no one else could be a world/olympic champ for him to have wins against world/olympic champs.

Well, there are a few big differences there.  Valentin came in in 1982, when at least three defending champions were wrestling.  The Japanese champion Asakura, Dietrich, and Belaglozov were all champions knocked off by Valentin when he first jumped into the international fray. Bulgaria didn't go to '84 Olympics, so he was able to Trstena many times after his gold.  Also, Valentin won the worlds 93, 94, 95, 96, thus ending his career with 4 straight world titles and ending on a masterful note. After he retired Abdullayev beat Henson for Gold. 

Frankly its hard to compare Greco to Freestyle anyway.  Karelin WAS the most dominant. BUt his competitors will hardly be as influential upon wrestling in their respective countries compared to Belaglozov, and the rest of the guys Valentin has bested and turned.  

Basically, we are splitting hairs between the closest things to Hercules reincarnated. 

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I'm guessing most of you didn't see Dan Gable and Wayne Wells wrestle in the 1972 Olympics or they would have been mentioned. Danny Hodge applied the 3/4 nelson on the Soviet after he'd been screwed by the referee against the Pole. The Soviets got it declared an inhumane hold after the Olympics. Dan told me he could have turned him without hooking the leg, but that he wanted to tortue him for awhile.

 

He got screwed against the Bulgarian that would go on to win the gold. Dan's strength was unbelievable, really scary.

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Sushil Kumars leg ride series is a joy to watch also. One of the few "pinners" in freestyle. Adam Saitiev had done highlight reel falls too though often from feet to back.

 

Yeah, beautiful technique by Kumar. Was one of John Smith's favourite techniques on top as well, he pinned Schillaci with it at the 1987 Worlds, for example.

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Today's Greco version, I'll go with Armenia's 2014 World champ Arsen Julfakalyan. Turn baby turn! (Yes, I'm a little biased here - got to meet and congratulate Arsen after his match with Dake at the Garden. Yet another fan friendly World class wrestler, and he speaks fluent English.)

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Inspired by fadzaev2's College forum thread about guys who were brutal on top.

 

something a lot of us i'm sure think is sorely laking on team U.S. is par-terre offense.

 

Who was the best (U.S. or otherwise)

 

 

I'll start (no order):

 

B. Saitiev: The 'west-point' trapped arm he does is virtually unstoppable, and he could do a thousand other things to turn you

Dave Schultz: made Nate Carr scream and then stuck him with that viscious leg ride.

Rick Sanders: The original funk king; completely unpredicatable and always looking to score

John Smith: non-stop laces and legs

Karelin /  Lopez: They should make the competitors in World's Strongest Man try to lift eachother like that.

Kudukhov/ Batirov : abusive

I love it GoNotQuietly....thought about doing this today myself.....at the same time, you made my day....I like your choices.....Loved Dave Schultz.....have watched the Schultz/Carr match more than once...don't like to bring it up as Nate is a good friend of mine and certainly great in his own right....3 time NCAA Champion, including wins over Olympic Champion Kenny Monday (in college)....Schultzy had great transitions for freestlye as Stieber recently has shown for collegiate....Dave could use brutal legs....all kinds of legs.....inside/outside leg turks, step thru turks, folded leg turks, and could transition to gut wrenches, Metzger tilts, lace legs, and even snuck in a full nelson to a half on Magamedov at Tiblisi once.....then theirs John Smith who could hurt you on top, especially with the lace legs....Jordanov is another great choice too!

 

FADZ

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Fadz, Nate Carr is one of my favorite people in wrestling, and we used to coach together at Carl Adam's camp in Boston when I was going to school there.  He would use me for demonstrations and easily send me literally flying through the air with a duck-under suplex with just a few quick twitches and a blur.  To cause pain to a guy like that is an incredible feat.  Joe Demeo taught us many of the par-terre techniques he learned along with Schultz and they were borderline undrillable because your partner would fold before you could even compete the move.  It is amazing when I watch freestyle now and 99% of our team doesn't even fain attempt at a turn once they get a takedown.

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Fadz, Nate Carr is one of my favorite people in wrestling, and we used to coach together at Carl Adam's camp in Boston when I was going to school there.  He would use me for demonstrations and easily send me literally flying through the air with a duck-under suplex with just a few quick twitches and a blur.  To cause pain to a guy like that is an incredible feat.  Joe Demeo taught us many of the par-terre techniques he learned along with Schultz and they were borderline undrillable because your partner would fold before you could even compete the move.  It is amazing when I watch freestyle now and 99% of our team doesn't even fain attempt at a turn once they get a takedown.

Nate's duck to one side, step around and body lock the other side :)....he won the world cup and many other matches with that....one of my favorites too...I actually did a short video for Jimmy Carr's funeral, it included, from my library, the 1973 World Cup, when Jimmy suplayed the Russian, and Yuri Shakmuradov had 4 of them taken away, and Jimmy lost the match....the suplays were spectacular!

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Well, there are a few big differences there.  Valentin came in in 1982, when at least three defending champions were wrestling.  The Japanese champion Asakura, Dietrich, and Belaglozov were all champions knocked off by Valentin when he first jumped into the international fray. Bulgaria didn't go to '84 Olympics, so he was able to Trstena many times after his gold.  Also, Valentin won the worlds 93, 94, 95, 96, thus ending his career with 4 straight world titles and ending on a masterful note. After he retired Abdullayev beat Henson for Gold. 

Frankly its hard to compare Greco to Freestyle anyway.  Karelin WAS the most dominant. BUt his competitors will hardly be as influential upon wrestling in their respective countries compared to Belaglozov, and the rest of the guys Valentin has bested and turned.  

Basically, we are splitting hairs between the closest things to Hercules reincarnated. 

I think you mean Reich, not Dietrich.  That 52 kg weight class was one of the most competitve I've ever seen in a 10 year period.  The top 4 place winners in 1983 were all World Champs at one time.  In 1986 Jordanov was upset by newcomer Junior World Champ Yong Sik of PRK who was only 19 years old.  Silver medalist Sato went on to become Olympic Champ 2 years later.  Obviously Sik didn't compete because of the boycott but went up a weight in 1989 and won Worlds in Switzerland, beating 1988 Olympic Silver medalist Mohammedian of IRI in the finals. 

 

Back to the par terre thing.  I'm surprised no one has mentioned Vladimir Toguzov.  Had the best ankle lace in the world, better than Smith's IMO. 

 

Yong Sik was also one of the best top wrestlers of that era.  He would get multiple turns from one hold, and usually directly from a takedown. 

 

These days you won't see many guys be brutal on top simply because they don't give you enough time.  But the best guy out there right now is Aldatov.  No one's even close. 

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The list of great par terre wrestlers all come from the 80s when turning was at a premium due to the rules in place at the time.  After that, it was only the wrestlers who adapted to the changes such as B. Saitiev and Aldatov.  There are a few others, but for the most part par terre is boring and the emphasis has turned to reshots/counter offense and pushouts. 

 

I believe that with the recent award of 4 point exposure from feet to back we are now seeing more trending of throws e.g. fireman's and more focus there in training efforts.

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The list of great par terre wrestlers all come from the 80s when turning was at a premium due to the rules in place at the time.  After that, it was only the wrestlers who adapted to the changes such as B. Saitiev and Aldatov.  There are a few others, but for the most part par terre is boring and the emphasis has turned to reshots/counter offense and pushouts. 

 

I believe that with the recent award of 4 point exposure from feet to back we are now seeing more trending of throws e.g. fireman's and more focus there in training efforts.

 

There were some great ones in the 50s-70s too.

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I absolutley agree. I think they should put those 30 seconds on clock too, the same way they do with the shot clock.

 

I don't disagree, but my ribs hurt just thinking about defending an Andy Bisek type gut for 30 seconds.  To be fair, my ribs hurt no matter what I do after all of those years of greco.

 

Edit: If they are going to leave you down that long though you have to be allowed to defend the lock, I hate this current trend of rules saying you have to let the guy lock you up.

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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