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Cleveland State to lose funding in order to fund LaCrosse

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No! The program was being dropped then the donor brought Cody in from Oklahoma State to build the program.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2008-03-05-wrestling-american-glenn_N.htm

 

 

http://www.soonerspo... ... =208803429

 

According to this article, Cody played a key role in elevating the American University wrestling program to a top, fully funded program. The article doesn't suggest that Cody was some type of passive recipient of a few big checks, rather it suggests that Cody had a well thought out plan for funding. 

Edited by oldsuper

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The baseball team was not allowed to use their facilities (field lights, clubhouse) so long as the softball team did not have equal facilities. The baseball facilities were paid for exclusively through donations from parents and boosters. If I'm not mistaken, these same baseball boosters ended up pitching in for the softball facilities just to get access to their own field.

 

I would guess that CSU donors would not only have to raise the funds to support wrestling, but an additional women's sport as well.

Just a back of the envelope calculation based on what I've read on here.

 

$5 million for no scholarships (budget of $200,000 / year) - due in 3 years

$5 million for a women's lax team - due in 5-7 years?

 

Then, if CSU is going to be competitive, another $10 million on top of the first $10 million (brings the wrestling budget to $600,000 / year)

 

That's a tall ask.  Anyone know how much Arizona State raised a few years ago?

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http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2008-03-05-wrestling-american-glenn_N.htm

 

 

http://www.soonerspo... ... =208803429

 

According to this article, Cody played a key role in elevating the American University wrestling program to a top, fully funded program. The article doesn't suggest that Cody was some type of passive recipient of a few big checks, rather it suggests that Cody had a well thought out plan for funding. 

 

From Cody's Bio

"He took over the program just after it had been dropped and then resurrected with just 4.5 scholarships available for seven wrestlers."

 

Why did American reverse their decision to drop wrestling? Why did an assistant coach at Oklahoma State take over a struggling program that was dropped? Because a donor saved the program and then brought Cody in to turn things around and continued to funnel money into the rebuilding.

 

Cody did a great job but he was part of the solution and he was sold on the vision. Let's not pretend that Cody could just go to any program and raise millions for wrestling.

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Here is an article where Cody says it...

 

http://www.pennstatewrestlingclub.org/content/read_news.php?id=1113

 

American nearly lost its program, but a fundraising effort by former wrestler Alan Meltzer revived the Eagles. Meltzer enlisted some powerful figures, including former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and wrestling legend Bruce Baumgartner, to help the program's cause.

 

"If not for the donors, we don't have a program," Cody said. "Alan Meltzer will do whatever he needs to do for us to be successful."

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Yes, dutchcountry7 there were donors that saved the program. Cody worked with these guys to make the program a national power. When the program was first reinstated, they didn't have the 9.9 scholarships they have now. Cody played a roll in helping them work up to that number. I'm not sure what your links are supposed to show me. My point still stands.

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From Cody's Bio"He took over the program just after it had been dropped and then resurrected with just 4.5 scholarships available for seven wrestlers."Why did American reverse their decision to drop wrestling? Why did an assistant coach at Oklahoma State take over a struggling program that was dropped? Because a donor saved the program and then brought Cody in to turn things around and continued to funnel money into the rebuilding.Cody did a great job but he was part of the solution and he was sold on the vision. Let's not pretend that Cody could just go to any program and raise millions for wrestling.

How do you know it's pretending? Cody has great people skills, I wouldn't put anything past him. I've ran into Cody a few times and have witnessed him accomplish some impressive things with those skills. That's probably part of the reason that he got into GQ, and he's definitely used that to his benefit!!!

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Not sure if this has been posted or not, but Parry is 150% all about Lacrosse.

 

 

From Laxmagazine.com: Parry has an extensive lacrosse background, having played the sport while in college at Brown, having hired Dom Starsia as Brown coach in 1983 when Parry was athletic director there and having been Butler AD when that lacrosse program started in 1993 (The program was cancelled by his successor in 2007.) Parry's wife is currently the assistant women's coach at Baldwin-Wallace, a Division III team in Ohio, and Parry has had two stints on the NCAA men's lacrosse committee

 

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Interesting analysis.  High School Lax players from the east are more academic and more willing to pay higher tuition than the high school wrestlers currently attending and projected to attend Cleveland State?  I am interested to see the data that supports this hypothesis.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/lacrosse_is_the_new_recruiting.html

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That isn't data, just an article.  A number of students on the lacrosse team are from NY, but lake erie is a private university where out of state tuition is the same as in state.  I think it's pretty different than the situation that Cleveland state is in...

 

Tuition at CSU is ~4K a semester in state and 6K out of state.  Don't universities get some reimbursment from the state for taking in state students?  What is the actual financial gain (∆$) per out of state student that attends CSU per year vs an in state student?  If it is only a couple thousand dollars per student, and the team may draw 15-20 out of state students at most....Is that financial gain per year really a justifiable reason for having a Lacrosse program?   

 

It makes much more sense to me that this AD has a Lacrosse agenda, as was seen at Butler, than this being some type of genius ploy to lure rich up state New Yorkers to the Cleveland area.  

 

Another note:  Acceptance as CSU is 63%...That is below a number of large state universiteis like Arizona State.  I don't think enrollment is a justifiable reason for the Lacrosse program, because if the university were desperate for students, why not just let in 70% instead of 63%.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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That isn't data, just an article.  A number of students on the lacrosse team are from NY, but lake erie is a private university where out of state tuition is the same as in state.  I think it's pretty different than the situation that Cleveland state is in...

 

Tuition at CSU is ~4K a semester in state and 6K out of state.  Don't universities get some reimbursment from the state for taking in state students?  What is the actual financial gain (∆$) per out of state student that attends CSU per year vs an in state student?  If it is only a couple thousand dollars per student, and the team may draw 15-20 out of state students at most....Is that financial gain per year really a justifiable reason for having a Lacrosse program?   

 

It makes much more sense to me that this AD has a Lacrosse agenda, as was seen at Butler, than this being some type of genius ploy to lure rich up state New Yorkers to the Cleveland area.  

 

Another note:  Acceptance as CSU is 63%...That is below a number of large state universiteis like Arizona State.  I don't think enrollment is a justifiable reason for the Lacrosse program, because if the university were desperate for students, why not just let in 70% instead of 63%.

I realize it isn't data....

 

If you don't trust that schools perform any due diligence before launching initiatives, that is fine. I am not going to pull supporting data and walk through the numbers. They want better quality students and they believe Lax will produce better students (from other areas of the country) than wrestling provides.

Edited by Pinnum

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I realize it isn't data....

 

If you don't trust that schools perform any due diligence before launching initiatives, that is fine. I am not going to pull supporting data and walk through the numbers. They want better quality students and they believe Lax will produce better students (from other areas of the country) than wrestling provides.

 

 

The only reason I mentioned it isn't data is bc MSU asked for data that supports lax athletes paying higher tuition than current wrestlers at CSU, and you replied with the article.    There is no supporting data within the article, other than general trends that there is an increase in lacrosse participation.  And no, I am not willing to accept that the university performed due diligence or take them for their word at face value.  As far as I'm concerned, it's important to scrutinize every reason they have given for dropping the program and counter them if they do not stand up.

 

The math doesn't add up for me when you consider the difference between in state and out of state tuition at CSU and the number of athletes this program will likely attract.  If you argument is quality of students, I find this equally implausible.  How smart are these Lacrosse athletes? Does this Roster of 40 people have any statistical impact on a university with an undergraduate enrollment of 12,000?  If the goal is to attract quality students, Spending that $400,000 a year on academic programs or scholarships would probably be more effective.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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The only reason I mentioned it isn't data is bc MSU asked for data that supports lax athletes paying higher tuition than current wrestlers at CSU, and you replied with the article.    There is no supporting data within the article, other than general trends that there is an increase in lacrosse participation.  

 

The math doesn't add up for me when you consider the difference between in state and out of state tuition at CSU and the number of athletes this program will likely attract.

There are a lot of little nuggets in the article that alluded to the things I mentioned, like: "The holy grail in enrollment in tuition-driven institutions are the proverbial full-pay students, he said."

 

But I was just trying to show the rationale behind the change. Attracting kids from communities in New England, Long Island, and Maryland where family incomes are higher is important for a lot of schools.

 

Again, CSU isn't looking to fund the school with 45 kids but they are looking to attract higher performing students and will likely attract 10-15 kids that will be in the upper third of the incoming class as a result of the addition. Additionally, a lot of those kids will be comfortable paying tuition.

 

Wrestling takes pride in being the NCAA sport with the most First Generation students. This is great but First Generation students are not often the students willing (or able) to pay for school and are not often the highest performers academically.

 

Of course this is a pet project by the AD but it isn't like the rationale that was likely sold to the President and Trustees doesn't have merit.

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the whole menu of varsity sports at CSU is pretty pathetic. looks like they said basketball will be their prime time sport and everything else will be bare bones to stay NCAA D1 eligible. then an AD came in with a plan to add lacrosse and bring in more tuition dollars/recruits and the admins/decision makers went for it. baseball was already cut. all the other sports probably share coaches and facilities with their women's counterpart, so the only thing left to cut was wrestling.

 

as worthless as fencing is to the mission statement of a regional Ohio state school, it does have one big plus that is easy to point out over a varsity wrestling team. 

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Anyone received a reply from Mr. Parry yet?

I did.......... he said he tried to raise money but ran out of time. Out of time? I looked at my clock....it is still ticking.

Well maybe not enough people wanted LAX to be added. so he is FORCING a personal agenda.

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There are a lot of little nuggets in the article that alluded to the things I mentioned, like: "The holy grail in enrollment in tuition-driven institutions are the proverbial full-pay students, he said."

 

But I was just trying to show the rationale behind the change. Attracting kids from communities in New England, Long Island, and Maryland where family incomes are higher is important for a lot of schools.

 

Again, CSU isn't looking to fund the school with 45 kids but they are looking to attract higher performing students and will likely attract 10-15 kids that will be in the upper third of the incoming class as a result of the addition. Additionally, a lot of those kids will be comfortable paying tuition.

 

Wrestling takes pride in being the NCAA sport with the most First Generation students. This is great but First Generation students are not often the students willing (or able) to pay for school and are not often the highest performers academically.

 

Of course this is a pet project by the AD but it isn't like the rationale that was likely sold to the President and Trustees doesn't have merit.

I agree that adding lacrosse may help enrollment in a tuition driven institution, just like we see some tuition driven institutions add wrestling.  However, I don't think CSU is a tuition driven institution (just going off of their 63% acceptance rate), so that rational should not apply here.   Also, I understand that you are giving the explanation behind how the AD may have sold this decision, but I am simply saying the perceived benefits for which he is arguing are likely greatly exaggerated.  A couple lacrosse athletes who are slightly better than the wrestling athletes will do little to help the overall academic pedigree of the university, considering its total enrollment.  If anything, the decision goes against the mission statement of the university:

 

 

"Our mission is to encourage excellence, diversity, and engaged learning by providing a contemporary and accessible education in the arts, sciences, humanities and professions, and by conducting research, scholarship, and creative activity across these branches of knowledge. We endeavor to serve and engage the public and prepare our students to lead productive, responsible, and satisfying lives in the region and global society." 

 

Bringing in an entire team of what will largely be out of state students for minimal financial gain to the university does little to help the region.  These students are the most likely to leave post graduation and take their newly educated selves elsewhere. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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the perceived benefits for which he is arguing are likely greatly exaggerated.

You're preaching to the choir.

 

I agree with you. I am just saying that the decision, from a strategic standpoint does have some basis. If you're going to be spending $400k on a program why not spend it on one that attracts high quality students from around the country that might help raise the academic profile? This is sometimes the problem in higher education. You have an administrator with an Ivy education who, I will assume, is trying to do the right thing for the school but is drawing from his own experiences and may not be able to relate to the demographics and culture of the student body.

 

Again, this is a question about what the mission of a regional public university should be. I am very much upset by this decision. The only course of action, as I see it, is a political one, which was the reason I posted the contacts for the legislature, in addition to the board.

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I agree that adding lacrosse may help enrollment in a tuition driven institution, just like we see some tuition driven institutions add wrestling.  However, I don't think CSU is a tuition driven institution (just going off of their 63% acceptance rate), so that rational should not apply here.   Also, I understand that you are giving the explanation behind how the AD may have sold this decision, but I am simply saying the perceived benefits for which he is arguing are likely greatly exaggerated.  A couple lacrosse athletes who are slightly better than the wrestling athletes will do little to help the overall academic pedigree of the university, considering its total enrollment.  If anything, the decision goes against the mission statement of the university:

 

 

"Our mission is to encourage excellence, diversity, and engaged learning by providing a contemporary and accessible education in the arts, sciences, humanities and professions, and by conducting research, scholarship, and creative activity across these branches of knowledge. We endeavor to serve and engage the public and prepare our students to lead productive, responsible, and satisfying lives in the region and global society." 

 

Bringing in an entire team of what will largely be out of state students for minimal financial gain to the university does little to help the region.  These students are the most likely to leave post graduation and take their newly educated selves elsewhere. 

i think everyone here will agree with you that a regional state school in NE Ohio would better serve it's mission statement by sponsoring a wrestling team rather than a lacrosse team.

 

would be nice if the NCAA would add to the minimum number of sports to stay D1 eligible or the governing bodies of the state schools could mandate that athletic programs must reflect their constituents better, but that would mean more money so i wouldn't hold out much hope.

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American University wrestling, besides Coach Cody and a couple rich donors was probably saved partly because the University, in General, joined the 23+ sport Patriot League. Entry into the Patriot League pretty much guaranteed entry into the EIWA (especially as Bucknell's program's interregnum began the same year American Joined). Of course the same thing was tried last year with Boston U, but it could not overcome the AD accepting a br#b* from New B@l@nc*.

 

 

Cleveland State intends to attract highly motivated, wealthy,academically strong student-athletes. Unless I am very much underestimating the academic at CSU, they aren't coming. What they will mostly get highly-motivated, middle class students who went to Upper Middle Class High Schools; those kids will need scholarships. Or they will get wealthy kids from Upper Middle Class or Wealthy High Schools who are motivated about Lax but not to study; those kids will get B-/C grades, all they need to work for Dad when they graduate.

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American University wrestling, besides Coach Cody and a couple rich donors was probably saved partly because the University, in General, joined the 23+ sport Patriot League. Entry into the Patriot League pretty much guaranteed entry into the EIWA (especially as Bucknell's program's interregnum began the same year American Joined). Of course the same thing was tried last year with Boston U, but it could not overcome the AD accepting a br#b* from New B@l@nc*.

 

 

Cleveland State intends to attract highly motivated, wealthy,academically strong student-athletes. Unless I am very much underestimating the academic at CSU, they aren't coming. What they will mostly get highly-motivated, middle class students who went to Upper Middle Class High Schools; those kids will need scholarships. Or they will get wealthy kids from Upper Middle Class or Wealthy High Schools who are motivated about Lax but not to study; those kids will get B-/C grades, all they need to work for Dad when they graduate.

 

This, exactly.  If the AD wants to go in the direction of claiming Lax will bring in better students, let him. It will backfire when slight increases in APR or team GPA are shown to be statistically insignificant compared to the university average as a whole.  They aren't competing with Harvard Lacrosse for recruits, that's for sure...They will probably have trouble competing with liberal arts D3 programs for recruits.  

 

Pinnum is dead on when he says this needs to be a political process because $5,000,000 will not be raised.  An AD is essentially a politician, so let the campaign begin. There is no New Balance money behind CSU lacrosse.  There is only an AD who doesn't really know what he is getting into. 

 

Goal:  Discredit this decision and show it goes against the best interests of the university.  

 

Goal: Discredit this AD and demonstrate that this decision was rogue and based on a biased agenda (bring up the past from Butler..Why was the program dropped the year after he left?  Somebody needs to dig into the details here and uncover any facts that will provide the real reason for this decision). 

 

There needs to be more than a Facebook page and e-mail campaign from outsiders.  How much does the greater Cleveland wrestling community care about having a local university that sponsors D1 wrestling? Maybe they don't, in which case the program is dead.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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