finally, some common sense in Jersey

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

http://www.app.com/story/sports/high-school/wrestling/2015/04/01/njsiaa-advisory-committee-approves-non-public-region/70798636/

[SetonHallPirate 990]

Guillermo, not sure I agree. Remember, they're still competing for the same NJSIAA state championship, just that the privates will have to go through a statewide private school region, whereas the publics will have the same road as before (sans the private schools).

 

For what it's worth, here's what such an alignment for the private schools might look like:

 

District 33 (Current Districts 1-8 privates): Morris Catholic, Pope John XXIII, DePaul, Don Bosco, Paramus Catholic, Bergen Catholic, St. Joseph (Montvale)

District 34 (Current Districts 9-16 privates): Delbarton, Seton Hall, Rutgers Prep, Christ the King Prep, Newark Academy, Queen of Peace, Hudson Catholic, St. Mary's (Rutherford), St. Peter's Prep (Jersey City)

District 35 (Current Districts 17-24 privates): Notre Dame, Pingry School, Bishop Ahr, St. John Vianney, Christian Brothers, Red Bank Catholic, St. Rose, Donovan Catholic

District 36 (Current Districts 25-32 privates): Holy Cross, Bishop Eustace, Camden Catholic, Paul VI, Gloucester Catholic, St. Joseph (Hammonton), Holy Spirit, St. Augustine

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

the most appropriate thing to do is to have two separate state championships.

The playing field is not level.

 

In lieu of that, making schools like each other compete for a smaller percentage of spots is the best solution.

[SetonHallPirate 990]

But remember, it's not the schools competing, just the individuals. There is no team scoring beyond Districts.

 

That's where separating them out makes no sense.

[belushijo 9]

the most appropriate thing to do is to have two separate state championships.

The playing field is not level.

 

In lieu of that, making schools like each other compete for a smaller percentage of spots is the best solution.

 

NJ does it right with having one single champion. 

[OCGrappler 44]

Having a single champ is hurting CA. Foley Mailbag on I intermat does a good job addressing this. I would bet the same is true in NJ. Moving to 2 classes has clearly benefitted NY in getting more exposure and more guys to college level.

[leshismore 216]

Having a single champ is hurting CA. Foley Mailbag on I intermat does a good job addressing this. I would bet the same is true in NJ. Moving to 2 classes has clearly benefitted NY in getting more exposure and more guys to college level.

It has not benefited NY at all in many people's opinion including mine.  It waters down the competition, leaves "what ifs" does NOT give more people a chance (if we had a little creativity).  NY went to two divisions directly due to some people who wanted a kid call "State Champ" from their school, where they most likely would not have won in one division.

It robs wrestlers from really being a State Champ, it robs spectators from seeing the best matches, and it robs college coaches from getting a reality check on who matches up with who.

 

The "clearly benefitted (SIC) NY in getting more exposure and more guys to college level" is simply your opinion, and not that of many New York wrestlers or fans.

[belushijo 9]

Having a single champ is hurting CA. Foley Mailbag on I intermat does a good job addressing this. I would bet the same is true in NJ. Moving to 2 classes has clearly benefitted NY in getting more exposure and more guys to college level.

Maybe in a state like CA, Foley's criticism has merit, due to the immense size/population.

 

I do not think the same logic applies to NJ.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

NJ does it right with having one single champion. 

But they also have a private school championship I think?  Their private schools would be more appropriate for that.  Schools like them.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

But remember, it's not the schools competing, just the individuals. There is no team scoring beyond Districts.

 

That's where separating them out makes no sense.

I disagree.

 

Ancilliary benefits like better schedule, training partners, kids outside the geographic area, better budget, etc... trickle to the individual level as well.

[Pinnum 840]

New York's move to two divisions was a good move. It created more interest in different regions of the state due to success at getting to the state championships and performing well. (Yes, the success likely came from a weaker tournament but it isn't like kids struggle from finding quality competition during the year or off season with all of the events that have sprung up.)

[Pinnum 840]

Not sure what I think of New Jersey's proposal.

[belushijo 9]

But they also have a private school championship I think?  Their private schools would be more appropriate for that.  Schools like them.

 

NJ does not have a private school individual championship. They do have a "Non-Public" Team Championship. There are some 'prep' schools which do not partake in the NJSIAA tournament ALA Blair and Lawrenceville Prep, St. Benedict's...etc.  But, as far as I know, they do not have their own state championship for those teams. If they do, it has nothing to do with the NJSIAA.

 

It's also important to remember that if you really think about it, it's only a few of the non-public schools that some people want separated. A large majority of the non-public schools in NJ aren't much better than the local public schools in their area, generally speaking. Quite a few of the non-public teams can't even field a complete squad. Hard to lump them into the same conversation as Bergen Catholic or Don Bosco (who used to have sub-par wrestling program until recently)

[OCGrappler 44]

Having multiple classes gets more kids invoked and more parents involved. It creates more interest and gets more publicity to more young wrestlers. For states as tough and as deep as NJ and CA that can only be a good thing.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

Schools that can recruit should not compete in the championship events with schools that cannot.  Simple.

 

It isn't fair.

 

Bergen, Bosco, etc...belong with Blair, Lawrenceville, etc...when it comes to states.

 

Kids should not be able to leave their home districts and compete for the same state title as home grown kids.

 

Bergen Cath is celebrating the successful recruitment of the McKenzie kid tonight.  not even trying to hide it.  Maybe the kid, or others like him- stay home if he can't win a Jersey State title

 

Can't have your cake and eat it too.  If you wanna go to a private, you should win a private state title.

Edited April 7, 2015 by GuillermoBilletas

[SetonHallPirate 990]

OK, fair enough Guillermo...but this proposal doesn't address that. This proposal does, however, give the private schools a separate path to Atlantic City than the public schools. Guess what...with this proposal, Joe from West Windsor-Plainsboro North (just to pick a random public school) is going to have the same chance of winning a state title as he would with the current format.

 

Your suggestion that they should be totally separated out has merit, and while I disagree with it, I understand the position. The NJSIAA's suggestion that they should be given separate roads to Atlantic City, but should meet once there, does not.

 

Honestly, I'd rather see slots being awarded to districts (for regions) and regions (for states) based on current-season performance (for instance, what is done in Division I wrestling) than this suggestion. Actually, I'd rather see the first level be (newly-required) conference tournaments, with advancement to differently-constituted regions and then states, but I'd literally turn stiff and blue holding my breath waiting to see that.

 

And yes, we agree on one thing...it's a little ridiculous to be recruiting middle schoolers to your high school, especially when the trip from Wall Township to Oradell will require him to leave the house at 6:30 every morning (if there's no traffic) to get to homeroom on time!

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

OK, fair enough Guillermo...but this proposal doesn't address that. This proposal does, however, give the private schools a separate path to Atlantic City than the public schools. Guess what...with this proposal, Joe from West Windsor-Plainsboro North (just to pick a random public school) is going to have the same chance of winning a state title as he would with the current format.

 

Your suggestion that they should be totally separated out has merit, and while I disagree with it, I understand the position. The NJSIAA's suggestion that they should be given separate roads to Atlantic City, but should meet once there, does not.

 

Honestly, I'd rather see slots being awarded to districts (for regions) and regions (for states) based on current-season performance (for instance, what is done in Division I wrestling) than this suggestion. Actually, I'd rather see the first level be (newly-required) conference tournaments, with advancement to differently-constituted regions and then states, but I'd literally turn stiff and blue holding my breath waiting to see that.

 

And yes, we agree on one thing...it's a little ridiculous to be recruiting middle schoolers to your high school, especially when the trip from Wall Township to Oradell will require him to leave the house at 6:30 every morning (if there's no traffic) to get to homeroom on time!

Like I said early on, in lieu of kicking out the recruiting schools completely, this is a a nice alternative.  I think NY does it this way.  less spots for the teams with different rules.

 

Basing it on in season performance might work via your metrics, but it is a little over the top for HS sports.

 

HS sports shouldn't be about recruiting 8th graders and having them make announcements on Facebook.  If anyone believes that the top Jersey schools don't voraciously recruit middle schoolers, they are clueless.  There is a place for that- the Preps.  

 

Level the playing field as much as possible.  If the 4th place guy in one region isn't as good as the 4th place guy in the recruiting schools region would have been- the world will go on

 

This has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with lunatic parent ego.

[vsnej 199]

what's next?

 

Press conferences?  Agents?  Signing bonuses for 6th graders? 

 

Repeating 8th grade - he already was a physical specimen for his age...

 

 

http://highschoolsports.nj.com/news/article/8970366922647486274/josh-mckenzie-no-1-rated-wrestler-football-player-selects-bergen-catholic-for-high-school/

[JasonBryant 2,096]

What about in situations where there is open enrollment for public schools?

[LkwdSteve 142]

"Honestly, I'd rather see slots being awarded to districts (for regions) and regions (for states) based on current-season performance (for instance, what is done in Division I wrestling) than this suggestion."

 

Isn't this the albatross that hangs around North Carolina's neck (unless things have changed)?

[SetonHallPirate 990]

No. North Carolina's conference tournaments mean absolutely nothing beyond being regular season tournaments...the top 16 wrestlers based solely on winning percentage from each region qualify for regionals. I'm suggesting that the districts be kept as now, but with slots being awarded to the districts based on those districts' in-season performance...district tournaments would be kept as-is.

[AnklePicker 646]

What about in situations where there is open enrollment for public schools?

 

The kids in open enrollment or choice schools will not be affected by this rule change.  However there is another proposal (looks like it is likely to pass) that defines schools as either open or closed enrollment.  If you transfer from a closed enrollment school to an open enrollment you will have to sit 30 days and will be excluded from the post season as a team and as an individual during the year of the transfer.

 

BTW, when a team like Bergen Catholic is winning 11 weight classes out of 14 in a district something needs to be done.  It's just not fair to the other teams in that district.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

What about in situations where there is open enrollment for public schools?

I think they are nonsense.

 

State associations should monitor them every closely

[SetonHallPirate 990]

What about schools in (for example) Newark, where the entire district is "open enrollment" within that district? Also, what about technical/vocational schools, that largely have wider district areas than traditional schools.

 

Just to use one more example, Jersey City doesn't have any public schools with wrestling. Are their kids entirely screwed unless they go to a St. Peter's Prep-feeder school for their entire elementary/middle school careers?

[AnklePicker 646]

What about schools in (for example) Newark, where the entire district is "open enrollment" within that district? Also, what about technical/vocational schools, that largely have wider district areas than traditional schools.

 

Just to use one more example, Jersey City doesn't have any public schools with wrestling. Are their kids entirely screwed unless they go to a St. Peter's Prep-feeder school for their entire elementary/middle school careers?

 

If you transfer from one open enrollment to another as per your Newark example, you sit 30 days and miss the postseason.  Vo Tech schools will be classified as open enrollment.  Transfer to one and you sit and miss the postseason.  

 

Now keep in mind that you only have to sit 30 and miss the postseason if you were a varsity athlete at your former school.  It doesn't apply to JV athletes or obviously kids who were offered no opportunity like those from Jersey City.