Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Katie

time to start training with the Cubans

Recommended Posts

The numbers are suspicious (almost all the wins mentioned are from one guy, Lopez) but as I said there is more evidence. Three athletes were suspended by the federation for throwing matches. Factual. Several wrestling insiders including high level wrestlers themselves have stated that this goes on. Not fact, but pretty compelling IMO as far as word of mouth goes. Them there are the unspeakably bad losses some of these generally incredible wrestlers have taken. I don't gsve time to look for them now but go watch Lopez loss vs Baroev, Romero loss vs Mindo, Garzon loss vs Gogaev. Lopez is one of the best wrestlers ever and he flops around like a wounded salmon in that match. IMO the question is not "do thrown matches occur" but "how often?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are Cuba's world-level finals results since 2002 when they won a world freestyle gold:

 

Men's world freestyle

 

2003- Quintana loss to AZE

2005- Quintana loss to RUS

2005- Romero loss to GEO

2005- Rodriguez loss to TUR

2007- Garzon loss to TUR

2007- Rodriquez loss to RUS

2013- Lopez loss to ARM

2013- Salas loss to UKR

2014- Salas loss to RUS

 

Men's Olympic freestyle

 

2004- Quintana CHAMP

 

Greco world

 

2003- Monzon loss to BUL

2005- Lopez CHAMP

2006- Lopez loss to RUS

2007- Lopez CHAMP

2009- Lopez CHAMP

2010- Lopez CHAMP

2010- Shorey loss to BUL

2011- Lopez loss TUR

2014- Lopez CHAMP

 

Greco Olympics

 

2004- Monzon loss to KOR

2008- Lopez CHAMP

2012- Lopez CHAMP

 

 

I don't think these results on their own show any of these matches were bought. You can never rule it out, of course, but without additional evidence I don't think there is a case. At any rate, if Cubans were being bought off, would the misconduct go beyond Cuba? Cubans lost to eight different countries in these gold medal matches. Are all of them offering bribes? Who exactly is involved here? 

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hence the other evidence listed in my post. Fwiw we can be relatively certain the Romero loss to Mindo was fake. Wasn't he literally photographed being given a sack if money by the Georgian federation? He got a suspension for that one. The match is hilarious too. After losing the first he accidentally wins the 2nd on some bizarre penalty and just rolls over in the 3rd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how Romero's career would have gone if he hadn't been part of a system that always sold matches. The guy was so good that even when losing on purpose he accidentally won. 

 

BTW, why does only the wrestler who sells the match get suspended? Shouldn't they both be suspended? Buying matches is just as bad. When you're trying to bribe guys who come from poverty it's hard for them to say no. 

Edited by Shiraz123

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Romero was suspended by the Cuban federation, not FILA.

 

Romero didn't lose all his matches on purpose. Against Saitiev in 2002 he thought he won in OT and was celebrating but the refs ruled Saitiev scored first in the scramble. Comparing the loss vs Mindo to the others, my personal opinion is that was the only thrown match. Again, opinion only.

 

That's what's do frustrating about this. Some of the matches listed above- Saitiev vs Romero Olympic final, Garzon vs Shahin world final- are among my favorited ever. And while it is my opinion that both are legit, the sad thing is I won't ever know for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was one of the worst throws I'd ever seen.  A 6 year old would have fought off the gut wrench.  The shoe tie?  LOL

 

How about the usually very pumped and cheery Romero (even when losing) keeping his head down and not eve making eye contact with Mindo at the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup. He wasn't too far off last year at 61 placing 3rd. He teched the Russian and his loss to Aliyev was very close. He will need to break something like a 12 match losing streak for Cubans in that finals to win though.

 

 

I got the stat from Mike Riordan at bloodyelbow; he might have counted only world championships and not Olympics. Going from memory WC final losses include Salas to Sadulaev and Aldatov, Lopez to Safayran, Garzon to Shahin, Quintana to Dudaev and Abdullauev (did win Olympic gold). Romero and Rodriguez each won gold early in their careers and then had a bunch of silvers; Romero to Saitiev 2x (1 Olympic) and Mindorashvilli; ARod to Makhov, Mussulbes and that Turkish guy. Montero also won a gold at some point.

 

I can't really remember the order of all these and how long the streak is at but since 2000 or do that's an awful lot of silver medals. Also a ton of bronzes being won in that time.

 

 

Here are Cuba's world-level finals results since 2002 when they won a world freestyle gold:

 

Men's world freestyle

 

2003- Quintana loss to AZE

2005- Quintana loss to RUS

2005- Romero loss to GEO

2005- Rodriguez loss to TUR

2007- Garzon loss to TUR

2007- Rodriquez loss to RUS

2013- Lopez loss to ARM

2013- Salas loss to UKR

2014- Salas loss to RUS

 

Men's Olympic freestyle

 

2004- Quintana CHAMP

 

Greco world

 

2003- Monzon loss to BUL

2005- Lopez CHAMP

2006- Lopez loss to RUS

2007- Lopez CHAMP

2009- Lopez CHAMP

2010- Lopez CHAMP

2010- Shorey loss to BUL

2011- Lopez loss TUR

2014- Lopez CHAMP

 

Greco Olympics

 

2004- Monzon loss to KOR

2008- Lopez CHAMP

2012- Lopez CHAMP

 

 

I don't think these results on their own show any of these matches were bought. You can never rule it out, of course, but without additional evidence I don't think there is a case. At any rate, if Cubans were being bought off, would the misconduct go beyond Cuba? Cubans lost to eight different countries in these gold medal matches. Are all of them offering bribes? Who exactly is involved here? 

Time to update these posts with two Cuban golds and Lopez not one of them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would we want to help Cuba?  Our wrestlers and training are superior.

This is one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.  Have you ever heard of the "Ugly American"? Gee, the US can't learn anything from anyone right?  Ask Brent?  Maybe he should have trained in Cuba more.  He might have at least made it to a medal round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Please don't make this a racial issue, just look at the facts; look at the make-up of most defenses on the football field; I'm guessing 90% are black. They are the better athletes on the team. Cuba has great athletes; their quickness, power and agility are not coached. Training in Cuba to get better is a ridiculous idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Please don't make this a racial issue, just look at the facts; look at the make-up of most defenses on the football field; I'm guessing 90% are black. They are the better athletes on the team. Cuba has great athletes; their quickness, power and agility are not coached. Training in Cuba to get better is a ridiculous idea.

 

Wow, where to start with this one...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Kingsland

Please don't make this a racial issue, just look at the facts; look at the make-up of most defenses on the football field; I'm guessing 90% are black. They are the better athletes on the team. Cuba has great athletes; their quickness, power and agility are not coached. Training in Cuba to get better is a ridiculous idea.

You just made it a racial issue....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Please don't make this a racial issue, just look at the facts; look at the make-up of most defenses on the football field; I'm guessing 90% are black. They are the better athletes on the team. Cuba has great athletes; their quickness, power and agility are not coached. Training in Cuba to get better is a ridiculous idea.

This is dumb on so many levels...

No one should train with Green or Burroughs or use Manning as coach because their success is all due to their skin color

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can say this much.  If I had a kid and wanted to get a jump start on wrestling, I'd go to Cuba to do it.  They have an unreal kids sports program in Cuba. 

 

Does anyone here in the U.S. take cues from them regarding youth sports?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Please don't make this a racial issue, just look at the facts; look at the make-up of most defenses on the football field; I'm guessing 90% are black. They are the better athletes on the team. Cuba has great athletes; their quickness, power and agility are not coached. Training in Cuba to get better is a ridiculous idea.

 

Let's see here. Our guys are raised under folkstyle rules, have folkstyle-based training partners, and train with folkstyle-based coaches. You really can't see any benefit to training with the Cubans, who only learn freestyle?

 

BTW, you asked everyone else to not make it a racial issue, and then you made it a racial issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can say this much.  If I had a kid and wanted to get a jump start on wrestling, I'd go to Cuba to do it.  They have an unreal kids sports program in Cuba. 

 

 

How long would you go there for ?  Do you mean send him there to live and for his schooling while there?  Or do you mean for the summer only? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the purposes of conspiracy theories Chamizo doesn't count. He lives in Italy; the reasons Cubans allegedly throw matches is the poor standard of living on Cuba.

 

The Greco guy- he was incredible. Massive throw in the semis and an arm drag to trapped arm gut for a tech- over a very decorated opponent- in the final.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Training with the Cubans (as well as in boxing, volleyball and what not), competing more locally, exchanges, toursim, trading, doing all sorts of wonderful things.

 

Would indeed be fantastic to start all that...... but can we please just make sure the bloody dicatorship is gone first and Cuba is back up from its knees? Used to have a higher standard of living than the US, would be nice to see it shine again, not taking a shortcut and simply stating to look the other way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Training with the Cubans (as well as in boxing, volleyball and what not), competing more locally, exchanges, toursim, trading, doing all sorts of wonderful things.

 

Would indeed be fantastic to start all that...... but can we please just make sure the bloody dicatorship is gone first and Cuba is back up from its knees? Used to have a higher standard of living than the US, would be nice to see it shine again, not taking a shortcut and simply stating to look the other way.

Cuba privatized a lot of its economy. Cuba just made English a required subject. I think they realize where their bread will be buttered in the future. I don't see why we should hang on to old grudges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cuba privatized a lot of its economy. Cuba just made English a required subject. I think they realize where their bread will be buttered in the future. I don't see why we should hang on to old grudges.

The grudge is not old at all - people get brutalized every day as we speak, we just chose to draw an arbitrary line and stop caring right when the monsters on top are running out of gas. Rather than help see them out, we gave them a second lease on life (something their victims never get).

 

A fantastic country with fantastic people and the best we can do is to help it breathe freely again, hopefully very soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The grudge is not old at all - people get brutalized every day as we speak, we just chose to draw an arbitrary line and stop caring right when the monsters on top are running out of gas. Rather than help see them out, we gave them a second lease on life (something their victims never get).

 

A fantastic country with fantastic people and the best we can do is to help it breathe freely again, hopefully very soon.

Well we'll see what strategy works better. 50 years of an embargo has done nothing. Let's see if flooding them with American money and American companies does anything. Cuba has been preparing for the change for years now. 

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...