Baumgartner vs Smith vs Burroughs

[Angry_Fish 313]

Baumgartner:

 

Olympics -- 2 Gold (1 in a boycott year), 1 Silver, 1 Bronze

Worlds - 3 Gold, 3 Silver, 3 Bronze

 

Smith:

 

Olympics -- 2 Gold

Worlds - 4 Gold

 

Burroughs:

 

Olympics -- 1 Gold (and counting)

Worlds - 2 Gold, 1 Bronze (and counting)

 

 

 

Gotta go with Bruce (so far)......

 

Sorry Leshi, after careful consideration, Pico did not make the top 3.

[heelpick 116]

Smith I would suppose could get the nod for the 6 straight golds. He and Baumgartner belong in the same sentence and I am not inclined to put one ahead of the other. Burroughs is off to a great start of being an all time superstar.

[PRyan2012 351]

I run a business. I look for longevity coupled with high producing as a key factor in hiring. I got to go with Bruce as #1! The guy even brought out the torch in 1996 and represented ALL athletes at the 1996 games. I don't believe a wrestler has been given that honor. But if someone asked if we had one year and one tourney who would win I would say  Sanderson, Burroughs, Gable, M Schultz or Smith over Bruce.

Edited April 20, 2015 by PRyan2012

[armspin 257]

Smith # 1 IMO. Most golds less losses than Baumgartner. Hard to judge Burroughs as to all time ranking before his career is complete. Right now his winning % is incredible but most of the greats start taking more losses near the end if their careers.

[KTG119 820]

isn't JB essentially tied with Lee Kemp at this point? 3 golds and 1 bronze (albeit Lee never got Oly gold, all his were worlds)? And Mark Schultz with 3 golds, Dave with a ton of medals but I think only 2 golds overall (1 world, 1 oly). Rick Sanders with a bunch too.  

 

just a few others who could be in the running for that 3rd spot.

 

I think top 2 are clearly Smith and Big Bruce, you can argue order based on more dominant but shorter run  for Smith vs a ton of medals over a more extended period for BB. I mean medaling in 4 Olympics alone in pretty crazy.

Edited April 20, 2015 by KTG119

[BraunMann 6]

Does Smith still take it to Dieringer, Rogers, Brees, and Marsteller daily in the room?

[quick__single 18]

I know I'm going to get crap for this, as I always do when this topic comes up, but a Super Heavyweight just isn't getting the nod over a middle weight. 

 

Level of competition isn't the same, technique isn't the same, and injuries aren't as prevalent at Super HVY.  That's why you see big guys having the longevity they do.

 

It's no coincidence that the guy who went undefeated in the US for 15 years and the guy who won 13 straight world titles are both Super HVYs.  

 

Karelin is great, but you can't tell me the world hasn't produced middle weights who were just as good or better.  News flash, there were and none of them won 10 world titles.  And you rarely see middleweights roll over to their backs to avoid being thrown so that they can "save their energy"  for the next match.  Gimme a break.

 

Smith is #1.  It shouldn't even be a discussion.

Edited April 20, 2015 by quick__single

[cjc007 774]

I know I'm going to get crap for this, as I always do when this topic comes up, but a Super Heavyweight just isn't getting the nod over a middle weight. 

 

Level of competition isn't the same, technique isn't the same, and injuries aren't as prevalent at Super HVY.  That's why you see big guys having the longevity they do.

 

It's no coincidence that the guy who went undefeated in the US for 15 years and the guy who won 13 straight world titles are both Super HVYs.  

 

Karelin is great, but you can't tell me the world hasn't produced middle weights who were just as good or better.  News flash, there were and none of them won 10 world titles.  And you rarely see middleweights roll over to their backs to avoid being thrown so that they can "save their energy"  for the next match.  Gimme a break.

 

Smith is #1.  It shouldn't even be a discussion.

..I take it you never wrestled the 285 lbers.  

..the technique is different, their strength is different, and their is far less margin for error.

..I wrestled at 185 and worked out with guys around 285 and I can attest the big guys are vastly underrated by the middle weights.

..try wrestling top flight 285 lbers, you may not be able to walk the next day.  but hey wtf, those guys suck, right? 

[quick__single 18]

Does Smith still take it to Dieringer, Rogers, Brees, and Marsteller daily in the room?

Smith rarely gets on the mat to go live these days.

[BraunMann 6]

Smith rarely gets on the mat to go live these days.

 

That's a shame.  Do you think he's wary of getting injured?

Edited April 20, 2015 by BraunMann

[gutfirst 220]

isn't JB essentially tied with Lee Kemp at this piint? 3 golds and 1 bronze (albeit Lee never got Oly gold, all his were worlds)? And Mark Schultz with 3 golds, Dave with a ton of medals but I think only 2 golds overall (1 world, 1 oly). Rick Sanders with a bunch too.  

 

just a few others who could be in the running for that 3rd spot.

 

I think top 2 are clearly Smith and Big Bruce, you can argue order based on more dominant but shorter run  for Smith vs a ton of medals over a more extended period for BB. I mean medaling in 4 Olympics alone in pretty crazy.

left out kevin jackson.

[gutfirst 220]

I know I'm going to get crap for this, as I always do when this topic comes up, but a Super Heavyweight just isn't getting the nod over a middle weight. 

 

Level of competition isn't the same, technique isn't the same, and injuries aren't as prevalent at Super HVY.  That's why you see big guys having the longevity they do.

 

It's no coincidence that the guy who went undefeated in the US for 15 years and the guy who won 13 straight world titles are both Super HVYs.  

 

Karelin is great, but you can't tell me the world hasn't produced middle weights who were just as good or better.  News flash, there were and none of them won 10 world titles.  And you rarely see middleweights roll over to their backs to avoid being thrown so that they can "save their energy"  for the next match.  Gimme a break.

 

Smith is #1.  It shouldn't even be a discussion.

nonsense. other that smith being #1.

[PRyan2012 351]

Smith can barely hit a switch in a live match with out grimacing in pain. I have seen him prepping guys at NCAA's. He is still great but he is old, that is all his problem is. He would get teched by all those guys now. Nothing wrong with that. Even Olympic champs at around their early 40s will get beat by average college guys. Circle of life!

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

I think there's a lot to be said for Baumgartner's longevity, especially given he is in the super-heavy category. Check out this article I found on Smith's career, it was written after Barcelona. I hadn't seen it before. He talks a lot about how hard it is for him to bring his best to the mat every single time and how emotionally draining it was for him to be the winner that he was.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-07-19/sports/sp-4788_1_john-smith

[BraunMann 6]

Smith can barely hit a switch in a live match with out grimacing in pain. I have seen him prepping guys at NCAA's. He is still great but he is old, that is all his problem is. He would get teched by all those guys now. Nothing wrong with that. Even Olympic champs at around their early 40s will get beat by average college guys. Circle of life!

 

Its incredible to watch video of him in his prime...and how nobody to this day can do the low single and high crotch at the international level for the US and convert it.  

[BigApple 86]

John is number one 6 for 6 in getting the gold medals with the bad mark pool sytem and no boycotts. You had to win more matches to get the gold than in this era. He lost matches when he had the gold medal wrapped up. He never lost when something important was on the line. Lee Roy is a good friend, he said John had ringworm so bad before the 1992 Olympics he was actually in the hospital for treatment. He wasn't in shape at the start of the games, his first couple of matches were ragged, but he won. John said he was doing some "backyard" wrestling those first couple of matches. Then he hit his stride and was dominant the rest of the way.

[heelpick 116]

It's ironic that in 1992 both John Smith and Kenny Monday had health and injury issues that could easily have kept both out of the Games. Kenny Monday had a terrible elbow injury and still managed to make the finals.

Edited April 21, 2015 by heelpick

[gutfirst 220]

In the hospital for ringworm?

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

I know I'm going to get crap for this, as I always do when this topic comes up, but a Super Heavyweight just isn't getting the nod over a middle weight. 

 

Level of competition isn't the same, technique isn't the same, and injuries aren't as prevalent at Super HVY.  That's why you see big guys having the longevity they do.

 

It's no coincidence that the guy who went undefeated in the US for 15 years and the guy who won 13 straight world titles are both Super HVYs.  

 

Karelin is great, but you can't tell me the world hasn't produced middle weights who were just as good or better.  News flash, there were and none of them won 10 world titles.  And you rarely see middleweights roll over to their backs to avoid being thrown so that they can "save their energy"  for the next match.  Gimme a break.

 

Smith is #1.  It shouldn't even be a discussion.

 

 

How about head to head?     You take smith over Bruce?  

[BraunMann 6]

Did the Russians (or anyone) ever find a counter to the low single?  Seemed like Smith always had a counter to every counter and don't know if I've ever seen him scored on after a bad shot the way the Russians normally seem to do.

 

Interesting that he never trained Tyler Caldwell and alot of the other OSU guys on how to do it the same way.

Edited April 21, 2015 by BraunMann

[WreslingSuperior 123]

Baumgartner

[quick__single 18]

In the hospital for ringworm?

It was staph infection, not ringworm.

[quick__single 18]

Did the Russians (or anyone) ever find a counter to the low single?  Seemed like Smith always had a counter to every counter and don't know if I've ever seen him scored on after a bad shot the way the Russians normally seem to do.

 

Interesting that he never trained Tyler Caldwell and alot of the other OSU guys on how to do it the same way.

Of course he trained his guys on the low single.  They just weren't John Smith.  And I've seen John get countered on his low single a lot. Gave up some turns and go behinds.  He was just relentless on his attacks and kept plugging away.  Guy just found a way to win.

[gutfirst 220]

Of course he trained his guys on the low single.  They just weren't John Smith.  And I've seen John get countered on his low single a lot. Gave up some turns and go behinds.  He was just relentless on his attacks and kept plugging away.  Guy just found a way to win.

he was relentless from his feet. but he was efficient in par terre. back in the days of 1 point takedowns, remember those, exposure won matches. smith scored more points on top than he did on his feet.

[gutfirst 220]

Did the Russians (or anyone) ever find a counter to the low single?  Seemed like Smith always had a counter to every counter and don't know if I've ever seen him scored on after a bad shot the way the Russians normally seem to do.

 

Interesting that he never trained Tyler Caldwell and alot of the other OSU guys on how to do it the same way.

smith rarely finished on the way in with his low singles. shoot, regrip, readjust position, trap opponent, finish. very methodical. smith taught many that you don't have to come off of your knees to finish shots.