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Angry_Fish

Baumgartner vs Smith vs Burroughs

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..I take it you never wrestled the 285 lbers.  

..the technique is different, their strength is different, and their is far less margin for error.

..I wrestled at 185 and worked out with guys around 285 and I can attest the big guys are vastly underrated by the middle weights.

..try wrestling top flight 285 lbers, you may not be able to walk the next day.  but hey wtf, those guys suck, right? 

So your reasoning for how good heavyweights are is that you had a hard time as a 185 wrestling them?  That means you were %65 of their size.  I bet 120 lb guys (same percentage difference) would have been impressed and unable to walk after wrestling you and the other 185s.  

 

I am a big fan of the heavyweights.  Almost all of the most successful kids I coached in HS were Heavyweights.  But just distribution of weight alone tells us that there are fewer adults, fewer competitors, and thus relatively less talent at heavyweight than middleweight.  Additionally, most of them don't have to cut any serious weight which allows for greater longevity. 

 

Heavyweights should be well respected and it is an integral part of our sport.  But when comparing across weight classes I would always give the edge to a middle weight over a heavy (or lightweight) when all other things are equal..

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So your reasoning for how good heavyweights are is that you had a hard time as a 185 wrestling them?  That means you were %65 of their size.  I bet 120 lb guys (same percentage difference) would have been impressed and unable to walk after wrestling you and the other 185s.  

 

I am a big fan of the heavyweights.  Almost all of the most successful kids I coached in HS were Heavyweights.  But just distribution of weight alone tells us that there are fewer adults, fewer competitors, and thus relatively less talent at heavyweight than middleweight.  Additionally, most of them don't have to cut any serious weight which allows for greater longevity. 

 

Heavyweights should be well respected and it is an integral part of our sport.  But when comparing across weight classes I would always give the edge to a middle weight over a heavy (or lightweight) when all other things are equal..

 

So your reasoning for how good heavyweights are is that you had a hard time as a 185 wrestling them?  That means you were %65 of their size.  I bet 120 lb guys (same percentage difference) would have been impressed and unable to walk after wrestling you and the other 185s.  

 

I am a big fan of the heavyweights.  Almost all of the most successful kids I coached in HS were Heavyweights.  But just distribution of weight alone tells us that there are fewer adults, fewer competitors, and thus relatively less talent at heavyweight than middleweight.  Additionally, most of them don't have to cut any serious weight which allows for greater longevity. 

 

Heavyweights should be well respected and it is an integral part of our sport.  But when comparing across weight classes I would always give the edge to a middle weight over a heavy (or lightweight) when all other things are equal..

..I didn't have a hard time with the 285's, when at 185.  I can't ever remember losing to a 285! 

...even when I bulked up to 230 in my mid 20's the weight wasn't the issue, I was much faster, more technical and in much better shape than the 285's. ( I basically copied Kerry McCoy's technique and strategy, although obviously he was way better than I could ever dream of being). 

 

..my point is that the technique is different that a lower weights, it really is.  You never want to shoot and get under a top heavy.  They will pound you with their hips and then flatten you with their weight. 

..I laugh when light weight's think their more technical that a 285 because they don't understand the the heavyweight technique. 

 

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The talent pool at heavy is smaller so a "weaker" wrestler will do better. Where else do you as guys win a major tournament while obviously undersized? Where else can a freestyle guy come out and medal at Greco worlds?

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..I didn't have a hard time with the 285's, when at 185.  I can't ever remember losing to a 285! 

...even when I bulked up to 230 in my mid 20's the weight wasn't the issue, I was much faster, more technical and in much better shape than the 285's. ( I basically copied Kerry McCoy's technique and strategy, although obviously he was way better than I could ever dream of being). 

 

..my point is that the technique is different that a lower weights, it really is.  You never want to shoot and get under a top heavy.  They will pound you with their hips and then flatten you with their weight. 

..I laugh when light weight's think their more technical that a 285 because they don't understand the the heavyweight technique. 

 

Thanks for clarifying.  You also make my point a bit.  The greatest 120 lb wrestler in history would get hammered by every 185 in the world championships.  But many undersized guys move up to heavyweight and win championships.

 

But I agree with you about technique.  On one level heavyweight is very technical.  You have to be perfect in your technique because of how you are made to pay for a mistake (like you pointed out in getting stuck under a guy on a shot).  Lighter weight wrestlers can get away with technical errors easier.  But there is a far smaller variety of technique used at heavyweight.  Many techniques just don't work physiologically at 285, so there is far less to prepare for and to worry about.  So I don't believe it is more or less technical, just a slightly different sport really.

 

But the competition level is undoubtedly lower and longevity is undoubtedly easier.  That's a factor when comparing guys across weight classes.

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Plenty of guys go up and win matches against good competition. I'd say Adam Satiev was undersized for 85 when he won in 2000. Dabir went from 58 to 63 and was a bad clinch call away from winning gold. Paslar won his gold the same tournament standing a foot under everyone else. The list can go on and on. Including guys going down a weight and doing worse. Hwts are at a disadvantage in this because they can't go up and beat anyone so they either beat a smaller man or lose to him, a lose-lose situation. I love Gatsalov and his hwt world championship was great to see but styles make matches and it's not like Gadisov or Sadullaev would be able to accomplish the same thing.

 

We should also bring up the football and basketball stealing larger athletes argument. Even though worldwide soccer is way more popular and I don't see too many potential heavies out on the pitch.

 

Most wrestling cultures care way more about heavies than any other weight. The Russian's are doing another hwt only tournament for a bunch of money. The only Iranian to win gold at hwt became a huge celebrity and pretty much retired after his gold. Ghasemi was the flag barer for the closing ceremonies because he medaled at hwt, despite having a few gold medalests at other weights. The Indo-Canadian community shares these feelings too having hwt only tournaments and they used to give $5,000 to the winner of the 96 vs 120 match at the Hargobind. All of this leads me to believe anyone who thought they could have success at hwt would try to.

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The talent pool at heavy is smaller so a "weaker" wrestler will do better. Where else do you as guys win a major tournament while obviously undersized? Where else can a freestyle guy come out and medal at Greco worlds?

I think most world medalists could place in the other style if they committed to it. The skill sets are very applicable either way. We are talking about a special kind of athlete.

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Smith may very well have had ringworm, but the staph infection was what made him really sick. I remember Jeff Blatnick mentioning that during the broadcast. I never knew he was that sick. Staph infections can and do kill people. This thread made me go back and watch more Smith videos. He had a wicked leglace and also used a bent knee turk that I am positive put the hurt on many an opponent.

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I think most world medalists could place in the other style if they committed to it. The skill sets are very applicable either way. We are talking about a special kind of athlete.

I think so as well. All American medalists converted to Greco from folk. And with the unfortunate state of Greco the last few years you can win with a very limited (although refined) skill set.

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There's lots of pointless exercises that are a lot of fun. IMHO talking about wrestling is fun and discussing who among a group of people not readily compared (in achievements, skills, or whatever) = talking about wrestling --> fun.

 

Another pointless exercise that I love is the often reviled but never going away FANTASY MATCHES. Sadulaev vs M Schulz for example. Satiev vs Dave Schulz. M Khardartsev vs Gatsalov (in his prime) and so on. I can't think of anything more pointless and more fun.

Edited by BigTimeFan

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Without pointless debates this site would be void of 90% of it's comments. Since I was a kid I remember arguing with my dad about the boxer vs wrestler and middle weight vs heavy weight champ. Everyone has entrenched opinions on these type things and it makes for great debate. Now we know the wrestler wins 9 out of 10 from the boxer and the Heavyweight wins 9 out of 10 from the Lt Heavyweight. But sometimes we get a Gatsalov and a Rocky Marciano. I like this stuff-sorry heelpick.

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Just remember. The reason they have weights classes is so light weights and middle weights have something to do. The longevity and injury point is simply ignorant.

I don't know about any injury correlation, but you really don't think not cutting weight allows a guy to hang around longer?  I would think many wrestlers would continue to compete longer if they didn't have to cut weight.

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I don't know about any injury correlation, but you really don't think not cutting weight allows a guy to hang around longer?  I would think many wrestlers would continue to compete longer if they didn't have to cut weight.

I actually do agree with that. I think it is a big reason why you see some middle weights pack it in earlier.

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