UWW Juniors - 74kg

[sockobuw 49]

edit reigning out of your post

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,067]

pico probably has more exposure to senior level opponents than anyone at his age in american wrestling history. probably by a large margin. 

 

his coaches got him this far, why would you doubt them now? 

 

wanting to see him wrestler more seniors because you'd find them more entertaining? sure, no problem there. having an opinion and second guessing his coaches? ok, i guess if that's your thing. but being adamant that you know better about who he should be wrestling? come on get over yourself. 

[Flying-Tiger 617]

Phish, I thought they didn't wrestle 154 at Jr. Worlds but now I'm not so sure.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Flying-Tiger

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

Regarding Hall, he is registered at 74kg whereas he wrestled Junior WTTs at 84kg last year. At 84kg Bo Nickal beat Hall 9-2 which overstates the win in my view but it was a solid win no doubt. Then again Hall is improving rapidly and crushed Anthony Valencia at the whose #1 (folkstyle). 

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

To the people who take Nolf at 74kg, what weight is he going college? 157? 

[TBar1977 4,611]

To the people who take Nolf at 74kg, what weight is he going college? 157? 

 

 

 

I have no clue. The kid is growing so maybe 165 now. 

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

Oh my! Please forgive me OH Omniscience One. Humbly forgive my impudence! I kneel beneath thee in utter embarrassment of my pontification!

 

Relax, insignificant mortal. You're forgiven.

 

By the way, as you kneel, it's Thee for you, not thee.

 

I couldn't care less what he has done, his latest senior encounter versus Metcalf showed he still had work to do here in US soil before he goes off to vanquish all those international foes you mention. Beating the crap out of American juniors instead of testing himself against real competition when it matters (versus off season or when not peaking) is not the way to the Team USA that's headed to Rio.

 

Just one man's opinion, albeit an omniscient one.

Edited May 6, 2015 by wrestlingnerd

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

wanting to see him wrestler more seniors because you'd find them more entertaining? sure, no problem there. having an opinion and second guessing his coaches? ok, i guess if that's your thing. but being adamant that you know better about who he should be wrestling? come on get over yourself.

None of the above. I just think he was trying to do the near impossible by 2016, so all that exposure is still not enough. We'll see. But with a year left to go until the Rio team is decided, I think skipping the most important possible preparation for Olympic trials to wrestle juniors is a bad move. Does having that opinion warrant telling me to get over myself? I don't see how. It's a perfectly legitimate view shared by several people a lot more qualified than me or you.

 

An adide: I think Pico is a stud and wish him great success. I am a big fan. That doesn't mean though that I can't have a view on what schedule he chose. I am in no way calling him out personally.

[vhsalum 43]

None of the above. I just think he was trying to do the near impossible by 2016, so all that exposure is still not enough. We'll see. But with a year left to go until the Rio team is decided, I think skipping the most important possible preparation for Olympic trials to wrestle juniors is a bad move. Does having that opinion warrant telling me to get over myself? I don't see how. It's a perfectly legitimate view shared by several people a lot more qualified than me or you.

 

An adide: I think Pico is a stud and wish him great success. I am a big fan. That doesn't mean though that I can't have a view on what schedule he chose. I am in no way calling him out personally.

 

 

Here's where your opinion lacks... WHY is this the "most important possible preparation" for the Olympic trials.  Again. The Junior World Championships is the BREEDING ground for future World/Olympic Medalists.  He doesn't have a goal of just MAKING the Olympic team.  He wants to win a gold medal when he gets there.  Facing foreign competition when they are actually peaking is FAR more important than wrestling in the US Open.  Especially when its clear he's not ready to beat Metcalf right now.  That's not a slight, it's just smart, being prepared and taking the chance to progress in his wrestling.  I still think he needs to work on his penetrations on his shots.  

 

And who are your qualified people that state the same.  I'd be just as willing to tell them they are wrong. And USA Wrestling (Brandon Slay and company) would agree with me.  

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

Here's where your opinion lacks... WHY is this the "most important possible preparation" for the Olympic trials.  Again. The Junior World Championships is the BREEDING ground for future World/Olympic Medalists.  He doesn't have a goal of just MAKING the Olympic team.  He wants to win a gold medal when he gets there. 

 

OK, that's fair. You can say my opinion lacks, and I'm totally fine with that. To pretend that my opinion has no validity whatsoever and I'm not entitled to it, or to suggest that I need to get over myself as Jaroslav did, that's another matter.

 

I don't think my opinion lacks, though. His goal may be to win the Olympics, but the prerequisite to winning gold in Rio is making the friggin US team to even have a shot. He can wrestle all the foreign world champs in the world, but if he can't get past Metcalf or a slew of others who in my view he can't currently beat (Stieber and Oliver come to mind), he's going to watch the Olympics from his couch.

 

The reason why the 2015 WTT is the most important preparation for the 2016 OTT is because it's the only competition in the world between now and next year that will most closely simulate the actual OTT. Teching a bunch of juniors and then going to the juinor worlds, where of course, the competition will be stronger, is NOT the same as going through the meatgrinder of winning a spot on the US senior team through what is essentially the same process (give or take) for making the OTT.

 

Regarding the qualfied people, the reason I didn't name them is because I don't feel comfortable calling people out like that unless they have spoken publicly first or given me their permission, neither of which are true. Suffice it to say that one of my "qualified people" is a former world medalist and another is a current division 1 assistant coach. Not that that gives my opinion any more weight, of course. I only mention it so that you won't think I'm trolling for no reason, since neither of those guys posts on here or has any agenda beyond stating their (highly qualified) opinion.

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,067]

To pretend that my opinion has no validity whatsoever and I'm not entitled to it, or to suggest that I need to get over myself as Jaroslav did, that's another matter.

 

if you aren't adamant that you know better than Pico, his family and coaches, then i don't think you need to get over yourself. 

 

you're entitled to your opinion and are free to share it. still don't think anyone knows what's best for Pico more than Pico, his family and coaches. but sure, another point of view in this situation has some value i guess. 

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

if you aren't adamant that you know better than Pico, his family and coaches, then i don't think you need to get over yourself. 

 

you're entitled to your opinion and are free to share it. still don't think anyone knows what's best for Pico more than Pico, his family and coaches. but sure, another point of view in this situation has some value i guess. 

 

I don't agree with that at all. The proof will be in the pudding as they say. But as a general rule, being close to someone -- or actually being the person in question --  doesn't always make you the better decision-maker. Does that make me more qualified than his coach? No. But it doesn't make my opinion so wrong that I shouldn't be able to share it without getting flamed.

[RetiredPoster 87]

Oh my!  Please forgive me OH Omniscience One.  Humbly forgive my impudence! I kneel beneath thee in utter embarrassment of my pontification!

 

To date: Pico has beaten the reigning World Champion, and finished 2nd in Junior World.  At this stage in his career he IS a Togrul Asgarov.  I apologize that you have seen the future and know that Pico isn't making next year's Olympic team!

 

Pico does nothing EXCEPT get "exposure to seniors" - he trains with them, has competed against them, and more importantly, seeks training opportunities with foreign "senior" opponents.  He isn't 'going the Junior route."  He is attempting to wrestle in the Junior World championships, which IS optimal, as it is the breeding ground for the Olympic and World medals.  Feel free to look at the number of Junior World Champs who go on to represent their country in the Olympics/World Championships, the number MAY surprise you.

 

This "american" concept of needing competition at the 'next' level is the biggest reason we don't do as well Internationally.  Pico is getting far more out of training with the Senior level Americans and foreigners than he would competing in the US Open.  It's ONE tournament. He isn't the favorite to win it, so I understand the 'patience' is coach is undertaking in this PROCESS that is preparing him for a run at an Olympic Medal.

Not to be Mr. Obvious, but training with Seniors and competing against them on the big stage, are two entirely different things. He needs to participate in the Senior Open and win or come close to winning, if he is going to be on the US Olympic team.  Enough of this "Ivan Drago" secret, Siberia training...

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,067]

I don't agree with that at all. The proof will be in the pudding as they say. But as a general rule, being close to someone -- or actually being the person in question --  doesn't always make you the better decision-maker. Does that make me more qualified than his coach? No. But it doesn't make my opinion so wrong that I shouldn't be able to share it without getting flamed.

wasn't trying to flame or pick a fight. i know youre a knowledgable poster.

[vhsalum 43]

Not to be Mr. Obvious, but training with Seniors and competing against them on the big stage, are two entirely different things. He needs to participate in the Senior Open and win or come close to winning, if he is going to be on the US Olympic team.  Enough of this "Ivan Drago" secret, Siberia training...

 

Again, not true. He does not NEED to participate in the 2015 US Open.  You are forgetting that the Junior World Championships can be and probably IS tougher than the US Open.  If he is going to be on the US Olympic team he need ONLY  win the Olympic Team Trials.  THAT'S IT!  And again, lets stop acting like he hasn't competed against Senior-level competition.  He's won two Senior-level events!  He's ranked 3rd on the Senior level for a reason.  

 

It's a weird conundrum, but this is a practice of aggressive patience.  Right now, he doesn't win the US Open, and I think that's clear.  BUT he does have a goal of winning a Junior World Championship, which is a BIG freaking deal.  He also has a goal of making the 2016 Olympic team and winning gold.  This ISN'T the 2016 Olympic Team Trials, so people need to stop acting like it!  

[GranbyTroll 454]

Why are people even discussing this kid even wrestling the Senior Open? Isn't he still a Junior in high school? 

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

There is something to be said for getting into the habit of winning at every level. Training with the best is one thing, but he has a chance to win the Junior Worlds. This isn't quite the same thing, but Tsargush wrestled in and won the University Worlds in 2013.

[hawktalk3 59]

Why are people even discussing this kid even wrestling the Senior Open? Isn't he still a Junior in high school? 

 

I am not trying to start a whole holding kids back debate, but he is 18, so I think that would put him more in the "senior in high school" group would it not?

[LemonPie 1,368]

He is actually old enough to have graduated in 2014. I believe September 26th makes the cutoff for the most part.

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

You are forgetting that the Junior World Championships can be and probably IS tougher than the US Open.  

 

No.

[wrestlingphish 1,037]

While Junior Worlds may be tougher in some instances I do not think that is the case at 65kg this year.

[JasonBryant 2,123]

Junior Worlds is one of the toughest tournaments in the world regardless of age. Completely arguable it's a tougher tournament most years. You can cherry pick certain weights to try to disprove or prove, but we don't have that many junior world medals from our studs historically. 

[GoNotQuietly 1,175]

There are probably a lot of years where there are more athletes who are higher ranked on the world senior ladder competing in the Jr. World tournament then there are at the U.S. open, but it's also true that this year at 65kg is probably not one of them.

[BigTimeFan 1,141]

Jason, I agree completely. The Junior Worlds are the same as Espoirs used to be, correct? Are there lists of who did what historically in the US and in the World?

[wrestlingphish 1,037]

Junior Worlds is one of the toughest tournaments in the world regardless of age. Completely arguable it's a tougher tournament most years. You can cherry pick certain weights to try to disprove or prove, but we don't have that many junior world medals from our studs historically. 

 But what's being discussed isn't most years or most weights. I think people are trying to determine of the 2015 65KG weight for JR Worlds are tougher than the 65KG weight class at the 2015 US Open.