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rodneydeeeee

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In no defense of Dake here. He is what he is in the fabric of collegiate wrestling. Anything in the top 10 consideration in the face of many tens of a thousands of wrestlers, is more than a satisfying accomplishment.

 

But the Olympics of the mid century is nothing like the olympics of today. It's a great accomplishment that a collegian could medal in the olympics in any era, but it isn't necessarily an argument stopper considering the era.

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Nonsense. If Dake wins his 4th title at 165 lb., then he's the best of all time. Guaranteed we'll never see it happen again.

 

Dake has been beaten multiple times.

 

Caels record has a 0 in it. Enough said!

 

Yea this is a pretty silly statement buck. It's "nonsense" to say that Dake (if he wins 4 titles) would not be considered better than the guy who also has 4 titles AND 0 losses? Come on....

 

The 4 different weight classes thing is fine and an unbelievable accomplishment, but it does not compare to going undefeated in 4 seasons. No matter how you try to twist and rationalize it...it simply doesn't compare....

 

If you did a poll on it, I am more than certain that an overwhelming majority of people would vote "Undefeated 4 time champion" is more of an accomplishment than "4 time champion at 4 different weight classes with 4 losses"

 

Also one more note on your wording here. If Dake's accomplishment makes him clearly the best of all time because you guarantee we will never see it again...uhhh who else has gone undefeated in 4 years of NCAA competition??

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Also one more note on your wording here. If Dake's accomplishment makes him clearly the best of all time because you guarantee we will never see it again...uhhh who else has gone undefeated in 4 years of NCAA competition??

 

And, who else has dominated the field as much also?

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It's more likely that we'll see an undefeated 4 time champion then a 4 time champion at 4 different weights.

 

The argument you are building here, to use your own words, is absolute "nonsense".

 

Ill ask again, as I just did in the other thread, what you are basing this on? What mathematical model are you using to determine that 4 time undefeated champ is more likely than 4 time at 4 weights?

 

The way I see it, is that even the 4 timer at 4 weights (which he isn't yet, btw) didn't go undefeated in his 4 years....wouldn't that make undefeated more difficult to achieve, being that the 4 different weights guy couldn't even achieve it?

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It's more likely that we'll see an undefeated 4 time champion then a 4 time champion at 4 different weights.

 

The argument you are building here, to use your own words, is absolute "nonsense".

 

Ill ask again, as I just did in the other thread, what you are basing this on? What mathematical model are you using to determine that 4 time undefeated champ is more likely than 4 time at 4 weights?

 

The way I see it, is that even the 4 timer at 4 weights (which he isn't yet, btw) didn't go undefeated in his 4 years....wouldn't that make undefeated more difficult to achieve, being that the 4 different weights guy couldn't even achieve it?

 

And I will add by saying..

 

Every wrestler of every team, every match, every year tries to go undefeated. 1 has done this. Rarely EVER do wrestlers try to win at 4 different weights. Most wrestlers stay at a weight because frankly that's just what they weigh.

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I recall during Cael's senior season feeling that there was a zero percent chance anyone would beat him. I would have bet my house on it. No one came close.

 

I don't feel that way about Dake. He's doing great and has impressive wins over Taylor and Caldwell, I think he's got a better than 50% chance at winning the title, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

 

An unscientific benchmark, but meaningful (to me at least) nonetheless.

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One could say winning four titles at the same weight is actually harder than winning four titles at separate weights. The reason is, the body goes through numerous changes as a 18-22 year old man. You grow, you are still maturing, etc. So to be able to maintain that weight is a challenge. Moving up weights, you are moving to your more natural body changes, not facing as much challenges cutting weight, weight management, etc. It's still there but maybe less.

 

There is no scientific proof to this just another side of things to look at.

 

Both are impressive and I lean no way over another.

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Pat Smith will still be the only 4 timer that won contributing to a Team National Championship.

 

Each of them, should Dake win, will have an incredible accomplishment to go along with being a 4 time NCAA D1 individual champion:

 

Pat Smith (actually 2): 1st 4Xer and won a team NC when he won his 4th

Cael Sanderson: 1st undefeated 4Xer

Kyle Dake: 1st 4Xer at 4 different weights

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Pat Smith will still be the only 4 timer that won contributing to a Team National Championship.

 

Each of them, should Dake win, will have an incredible accomplishment to go along with being a 4 time NCAA D1 individual champion:

 

Pat Smith (actually 2): 1st 4Xer and won a team NC when he won his 4th

Cael Sanderson: 1st undefeated 4Xer

Kyle Dake: 1st 4Xer at 4 different weights

 

True, but this is not the discussion here.

 

The discussion is how silly it is to claim that 4 time champ at 4 weights (with multiple losses) is a tougher/more impressive accomplishment than 4 time champ with ZERO losses.

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I'm not sure there really is anything possibly that can be done to knock an undefeated wrestler out of the top spot.

 

Perhaps 4X no RS?

Or 4X undefeated being more dominant (going to be hard to do)

 

I clearly think someone with multiple losses isn't in the discussion.

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Pat Smith will still be the only 4 timer that won contributing to a Team National Championship.

 

Each of them, should Dake win, will have an incredible accomplishment to go along with being a 4 time NCAA D1 individual champion:

 

Pat Smith (actually 2): 1st 4Xer and won a team NC when he won his 4th

Cael Sanderson: 1st undefeated 4Xer

Kyle Dake: 1st 4Xer at 4 different weights

 

True, but this is not the discussion here.

 

The discussion is how silly it is to claim that 4 time champ at 4 weights (with multiple losses) is a tougher/more impressive accomplishment than 4 time champ with ZERO losses.

Cael Sanderson also made a World Team while in college.

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But the Olympics of the mid century is nothing like the olympics of today. It's a great accomplishment that a collegian could medal in the olympics in any era, but it isn't necessarily an argument stopper considering the era.

I'd agree that the Olympics are more competitive today. On the other hand, since it's very difficult to compare different eras, the accomplishments of past champions are often too easily dismissed. It's also difficult to judge where current era wrestlers would fit in on an all-time list. Probably, some time should pass before even making an attempt. Folks are naturally more interested in current wrestlers and their perceptions are often colored by other factors (personal favorites, team loyalty, etc.) For example, some have posted that Dake will surpass Sanderson if he wins 4 titles, due to not redshirting and wrestling at 4 weights. Others believe those factors can't possibly trump a 159-0 perfect career record, which included being a 3x Hodge winner and a 4x NCAA Outstanding Wrestler Award winner.

 

At any rate, getting back to the collegians previously discussed, most of today's fans never saw them wrestle in person. However, when this topic was previously discussed, Stove_Pipe said "Gray Simons was the quickest, slickest college wrestler I've ever seen, and I'd say he and Uetake were the best two NCAA lower weight wrestlers I've ever seen." Keep in mind that this is from a man who has watched the sport very closely for years, and continues to do so. Many others who had the privilege to see Uetake, Hodge and Simons, also believe they would fare just as well against today's competition.

 

And keep in mind that the old-timers usually didn't start wrestling until high school and never had access to the resources of today's wrestlers. Many of their coaches prohibited weight-lifting, fearing it would make them "muscle-bound." And, of course, technique continues to evolve and improve. Therefore, there are only a handful of exceptional athletes who, if transported to this era in their prime, would consistently beat today's stars. However, if the old-time greats had grown up in this era, I think they would likely still be stars against today's competition.

 

I also think that any comparisons of wrestlers across eras should be done within the context of their times, as has been traditional in sports. For example, Jim Thorpe and Jesse Owens appear on most all-time greatest athletes lists although their Olympic records have long been eclipsed by many others (who are not considered all-time greats).

 

At any rate, college wrestlers who beat all their opponents, and win Olympic gold and silver medals, or beat defending world champs while still sophomores, have done about everything humanly possible to establish their "greatness," regardless if future Olympics may be more competitive than in their era. And, no matter who makes up an all-time greatest list, it will necessarily be subjective. One noted wrestling historian, in a 1981 USA Wrestling magazine article, probably summed up the best approach to take:

 

Dan Sayenga wrote: It's great fun to think about who was the greatest. Go ahead and make up a tabulation of the wrestlers who appealed most to you. But remember, don't try to list them in order. They all belong at the top of the list, and you can't buy paper wide enough for that.

Now I'm sure the above advice won't be heeded, so let the arguments continue....:P

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For those of you that TRULY believe he is mentioned in Cael's tier or even consider him to be top 3 all time...

 

IF, a big IF Taylor beats him at ALL this year - does that automatically defeat his top 3 status?

 

Dake's one of the top collegiate wrestlers ever, but as good as he is, he's not in Sanderson's league. In terms of folkstyle wrestling, there's Cael, and then there's everyone else. Dake wins, but Cael made other great wrestlers look amateurish. Cael's complete college record can be found here: http://www.caelsanderson.com/media/

 

Just look at some of the names that Cael embarrassed along his path to never losing.

 

Getting back to Dake, he absolutely must win a 4th title to be in the conversation for Top 3 ever.

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since cael has 0 wins as a freshman....... we are trying to compare apples with oranges.

Both young men are excellent competitors. I am of the belief there are a BUNCH of people at the top of this mountain. Trying to argue one is greater than another is no more than one mans opinion vs. another mans opinion.

which one is right....... MINE of course :idea:

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LMAO...........If, you think this is the BEST ERA for wrestling - then DAKE is superior ....yet, I would have to believe that some of you go back a few decades and can chronologically find wrestlers who were Dake's equal and or who were superior.

 

Just to think- that three short years ago many didnt have him winning his first title...yet, today he has reached Zeus like proclaimations...too funny !!! Kyle Dake- is an exceptional wrestler. Very adaptable to roll with anyone...TODAY- YESTERDAY- and TOMORROW. He is still not dynamic offensively in neutral- he is more than exceptional defensively yet, the BEST EVER- too funny !!!

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Guest Hammerlock3

If there was any doubt that Rodneydeee is a paranoid curmudgeon determind to debunk the myth that dake is good, compare the title of this topic to who he addresses in his first sentence.

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In my opinion, winning 4 titles at 4 different weights is an equal or greater feat than completing your career undefeated.

 

As has been mentioned by others, I really don't know how the 4 different weights part factors into the level of the accomplishment, other than to say it's a very interesting piece of trivia, and good for him for not being afraid to go up. But guys grow and change weights very often, albeit not necessarily one weight class per year like Dake.

 

I agree that it's winning titles in March that should determine legacy much more so than regular season stats, just like every other sport, but to me, the 4 titles in 4 years is the amazing accomplishment, the "4 different weights" is just a fun fact that doesn't affect the accomplishment.

 

 

 

If winning 4 titles is the accomplishment, would Cael going undefeated just be a "fun fact" or "interesting piece of trivia"? I think Cael going undefeated certainly adds to his accomplishment and I certainly feel moving up a weight class every year while in college adds to the accomplishment. I would go so far as to say that winning 4 titles, no redshirt & moving up a weight every year is a greater accomplishment.

 

 

What is it about moving up weight classes that makes the accomplishment greater? It isn't like Dake is wrestling up, he's wrestling at his optimum weight after a big weight cut.

 

Count me in as one who also views it as an interesting and fun fact, (moving weight classes as he grows). Now had he bumped up from his certified weight and won at the next weight class up, well then yeah, that would be quite the accomplishment.

 

Personally I'm not convinced Dake is better than senior year Burroughs. Yes by resume Dake will be viewed as top 3 all time by most, but resume doesn't necessarily = best wrestler. If Dake fails to win his 4th, it will be debated if he's better than Rosholt, the resume will be very similar.

 

With all of that said, I think it's fantastic that Dake continues to out grow his weight class and continues to win championships. I can't wait to see what happens in the 165 pound weight class, come NCAAs.

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