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BigTimeFan

Senior Finals Thread

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Who knows with Dake -- how healthy is he?   

 

Would love to see Valencia against all of them .... I'm picturing him blast doubling Burroughs and then the reverse ...  awesome spectacle.  Each of them vowing to win in the blast double game!

 

Agree that's the big question with Dake. He looked pretty good in his return last week, but he could've wrestled on one leg and won that tourney, so it's not much of an indicator.

 

Let's not get carried away. If JB and Valencia start trading doubles, JB would double leg Valencia all the way back to California.

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WTTs are going to be fantastic. I think we will get to see either Valencia-Dake or Taylor-Dake. I think Valencia could take Taylor but not Dake. Call me crazy.

 

Crazy. lol

 

Valencia is very good but I don't think he can beat anyone of the holy trinity in the 74 kg JB/Dake/DT.

 

 

Who knows with Dake -- how healthy is he?   

 

Would love to see Valencia against all of them .... I'm picturing him blast doubling Burroughs and then the reverse ...  awesome spectacle.  Each of them vowing to win in the blast double game!

 

He seemed pretty healthy in the Northeast Regionals, winning it easily.

Edited by Axe_Spartan

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Crazy. lol

 

Valencia is very good but I don't think he can beat anyone of the holy trinity in the 74 kg JB/Dake/DT.

 

 

 

He seemed pretty healthy in the Northeast Regionals, winning it easily.

 

I wouldn't put Dake or DT on JB's level. In the future they may prove to be in the same league as him, but right now, nothing tells us they are. 

 

I mean, DT just got teched by Tsargush, and I think Dake's best international showing was fifth place at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix. 

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I wouldn't put Dake or DT on JB's level. In the future they may prove to be in the same league as him, but right now, nothing tells us they are. 

 

I mean, DT just got teched by Tsargush, and I think Dake's best international showing was fifth place at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix. 

 

Actually I didn't put them in the same league as Burroughs. Burroughs is the obvious first place in the 74 kg category, Dake and Taylor are below him.

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Given that Anthony Valencia just qualified for WTT, should Mark Hall seriously consider signing up for the northern plains regional? I know neither of them is cracking the world team this year with Burroughs, Dake, Taylor and Howe fighting for those top 3 spots, but I think it would be great to see him try and compete at this level. Since he was born in 97, he would need a medical certificate. I know he may be focused on UWW junior, but it's pretty clear his aspirations go well beyond winning cadet and junior world titles.

 

That being said, it's hard to argue with his development plan at this point. Him and Pico may both just be focused on being able to dominate their age group before taking on senior level guys. As far as other Northern Plains/wildcard guys, I would have to imagine Godly, Imar, Dieringer and Ian Miller could also be in the mix as guys who should be considering WTT.

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Hoping they show the replay of the Schlatter 4 pointer (being challenged now).  My flo froze.

 

Here it is ... hmmm, schlatter pushing him out.  Marable tries to heave him over ... Looks like the 4 is flipped to Marable!!  Big challenge!

 

I didn't see this one live, but after going back to watch it on flo this was a really terrible call.  It was all Schlatter's move, with a desperation attempt by Marable to roll him though, and I don't think Dustin ever even exposed his back. 

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I didn't see this one live, but after going back to watch it on flo this was a really terrible call.  It was all Schlatter's move, with a desperation attempt by Marable to roll him though, and I don't think Dustin ever even exposed his back. 

That was very difficult to score.  Watching it live, I thought it was Schlatter's 4.  I went back to look at it and I initially thought they got the call right.  Marable hit a counter, they changed direction, and Schlatter bridged to prevent his back from exposing.  

 

The problem is, I'm not sure that Schlatter ever broke 90 degrees. The right call in that case would probably be 1 point for Marable.

 

A couple of things here 1) the refs should have the benefit of slow motion if they are reviewing a call.  2) Flowrestling should have a slow motion feature on their videos.  Why don't they?

 

about 4:35 --

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/252173-2015-ASICS-US-Open/video/769575-70kg-Finals-Nick-Marable-Sunkist-Kids-Wrestling-Club-vs-Dustin-Schlatter-Minnesota-Storm#.VU9eJ-uDqAA

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The problem with going to the Northern Plains is why bother. At this point Hall has little chance of making the world team if any of JB, Dake or Taylor are at the trials. If all three of them are there, it's pretty much a zero. So he'd be wrestling in the Northern Plains (which is May 14-16 in Waterloo IA, that is, this coming Thursday to Saturday), in order to give up wrestling in the junior WTTs and not make a world team versus wrestling in juniors, have a good shot of making the world team (very good!) and a good shot of being a junior world champ.

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Hall could just go to Northern Plains and wrestle as Seniors just to see where he stands. Maybe someone tough shows up last minute to qualify and Hall can get a couple tough senior level matches. Even though he would secure a spot in the WTT that wouldn't mean he has to use it. I think its clear that these young studs love to compete so I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Hall give it a shot. What does he have to lose?

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WTTs are going to be fantastic. I think we will get to see either Valencia-Dake or Taylor-Dake. I think Valencia could take Taylor but not Dake. Call me crazy.

How do you all think WTTs will be seeded 1-4 between Dake - Taylor - Howe - Valencia - Caldwell?

 

I'm assuming Dake and Taylor get placed in opposite brackets as the 1 and 2 seeds, but am not sure who gets the top seed. I also wonder if there's a chance for a Dake - Howe match rather than Taylor - Howe III.

 

Tough road to JB no matter what, though!

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As is often the case, the finals were not as exciting as the semis and earlier rounds.  Below is my take:

 

1. 57 Ramos has clearly taken control of the weight.  Was pushed the limit by Hoch but came through at the end when needed.  Seems to revel in the role of the heel.

 

2.  61 -- Maple gave Humprhey all he can handle in what turned out to be a very entertaining final, unexpectedly so.  Will be interesting to see  if Maple can repeat this performance at WTTs.

 

3. 65 -- Coming into the event this weight had the most juice. Kennedy and Pico not being there took away from some of the sizzle, but Stieber, Oliver, Metcalf, Russell and Molinaro still make for a deep field.  And I was hoping to see Metcalf/Oliver again in the final.  Russell showed that rumors of his demise were greatly exaggerated and he is still a force at this weight.  Stieber will just keep getting better now that he can focus on FS.  I really think he could make 61 and win that weight, but I think he is discouraged by it not being an Olympic weight.  Still interested to see if Kennedy and/or Pico are at WTTs.  

 

I think the gap between Metcalf and the other top contenders is closing. Molinaro gave him a run.  And maybe I am biased, but i really believe that if JO was healthy he had an excellent shot at beating him.  Now the odds are heavily stacked against JO for WTTs.  1) BM has a bye to the finals while JO has to fight through a murders row min-tourney.  2) JO's leg is a serious concern.  I have no inside info but I saw the pain in his face as he was leaving the arena Fri night; it did not look good.  I never expected him to try to go on Sat, but to his credit, he gave it a shot. B/c his offense was so limited, BM did not have to do much to secure a win.  In fact, BM never even got in a shot (but did not have to).  But JO did get in on one early (and scored). I gotta believe there was more where that came from if JO could wrestle at full strength.  Now the question is whether or not JO will be healthy for the WTTs and if he will be able to train properly between now and then.  I expect another year of BM at World's but something tells me either JO or Pico get him at Olympic Trials next year.  BM better win a medal at World's this year to secure a spot in trials finals

 

4. 70 -- Ironically, a 4 point throw early changed the complexion of the bout dramatically.  I expected this to be one of the most exciting of the night, but once Marable got up he was able to play defense the rest of the way which made for an unexciting bout after the 4 point move. I think DS will make it a closer match in June.

 

5. 74 -- Howe had an excellent strategy.  Tie up, keep it close, don't let DT open up and then go for it at the end.  And it almost worked. made for a boring bout, but great strategy.  It's easy to think that DT has improved when watching him in the prelims and quarters, but then get reminded of his limitations when he hits guys like JB, (healthy) KD, Tasrgush --- and now even Howe seems to have something for him.

 

6. 86 -- Hated not seeing Ruth in the finals but it looks like Herbert is back.  Can't wait to see a more focused Ruth hit him at WTTs.  Herbert's 4 point move was one of the more exciting moments of the night.

 

7. 97 -- Boring, but historic?, bout.  Again, can't wait to see the re-match at WTTs (unless Cox has something to say about it.

 

8. 125 -- Dlagnev.  Closer than expected -- but the bout was meaningless.  I expected TD to win by a wider margin in June. 

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How do you all think WTTs will be seeded 1-4 between Dake - Taylor - Howe - Valencia - Caldwell?

 

I'm assuming Dake and Taylor get placed in opposite brackets as the 1 and 2 seeds, but am not sure who gets the top seed. I also wonder if there's a chance for a Dake - Howe match rather than Taylor - Howe III.

 

Tough road to JB no matter what, though!

 

I'm no expert, but my impression was Taylor gets the one seed at the challenge tournament because be won the 2015 US Open. If that's the case, I see the challenge tournament seeding going as follows:

 

1) Taylor (2015 US Open champ)

2) Howe (2015 US Open runner up and 2015 Ivan Yarygin runner up)

3) Valencia (Tough to seed Dake this high with so few recent results. Meanwhile, Valencia was third at the 2015 US Open.)

4) Dake (2013 WTT runner up and 2013 Golden Grand Prix fifth place)

 

After these four you have Caldwell and you potentially have Deiringer and iMart. Lots of talent at this weight class.

Edited by Katie

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I'm no expert, but my impression was Taylor gets the one seed at the challenge tournament because be won the 2015 US Open. If that's the case, I see the challenge tournament seeding going as follows:

 

1) Taylor (2015 US Open champ)

2) Howe (2015 US Open runner up and 2015 Ivan Yarygin runner up)

3) Valencia (Tough to seed Dake this high with so few recent results. Meanwhile, Valencia was third at the 2015 US Open.)

4) Dake (2013 WTT runner up and 2013 Golden Grand Prix fifth place)

 

After these four you have Caldwell and you potentially have Deiringer and iMart. Lots of talent at this weight class.

 

 

 

I don't  think you can argue with that logic.   Dake has very little at all in the past season in terms of meaningful wins.   Perhaps give him that 4 spot based on being a national team mamber.   

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I'll be interested in Maple, he's just finished graduate school. This was his first major freestyle competition. Now he has a month without worrying about school to workout improving his freestyle technique. I give him a very good chance of beating Reece.

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Getting back to Metcalf and his medal chances, 

 

a great many of USA international greats medaled early on. Here are some and some of their accomplishments:

 

Bruce Baumgartner (1983 World Bronze, 1984 Olympic Champ, 1982 NCAA Champ)

Dave Schultz (1983 World Champion, 1982 NCAA Champion)

Barry Davis (1984 Olympic Champ, 1985 World Silver, 1982, 1983, 1985 NCAA Champ)

Mark Schultz (1984 Olympic Gold, 1985 World Champ, 1981-83 NCAA Champ)

Bill Scherr (1985 World Champ, 1984 NCAA Champ)

John Smith (1987 World Champ, 1987-88 NCAA Champ)

Zeke Jones (1991 World Champ, 1990 NCAA Runner Up)

Tom Brands (1993 World Champ, 1990-92 NCAA Champ)

Stephen Neal (1999 World Champ, 1999 NCAA Champ)

Cael Sanderson (2003 World Silver, 2004 Olympic Gold, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 NCAA Champ... also did not compete in 2001 Worlds as is well known)

Jordan Burroughs (2011 World Champ, 2012 Olympic Champ, 2009, 2011 NCAA Champ)

Jake Varner (2011 World Bronze, 2012 Olympic Gold, 2009, 2010 NCAA Champ)

 

There are obviously many others, but you get the idea. In fact, I've heard some people on these boards say that for USA guys the first time out is often the easiest time to medal because there is less scouting available. I've heard people say this about Herbert's medal run, for example.

 

That's a pretty long list but it's not exhaustive. But this is some "historical" evidence. In fact, I would say it is the exception when someone doesn't get out there and medal shortly after his last college season and when there has been a delay in many cases it's because the guy had to wait to make the team (Monday, for example).  Metcalf's last season was 2010. So while history is only history and people make their own stories, Metcalf would most definitely be bucking the trend at this point if he were to medal.

Edited by BigTimeFan

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From what I've heard in Russia, the only US wrestler they seem interested in scouting is Burroughs. I've always written off the whole Russians scouting Gable thing as more myth than reality. The Russian coaches I spoke to don't have much respect for the games or technique of most American wrestlers, they just view them as tough and physical. They are much more worried about wrestlers from their own part of the world. It's hard enough to win Russian nationals, why would you worry about how Jake Herbert wrestles when you have to wrestle in Sadulaev's weight class to even make the team.

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From what I've heard in Russia, the only US wrestler they seem interested in scouting is Burroughs. I've always written off the whole Russians scouting Gable thing as more myth than reality. The Russian coaches I spoke to don't have much respect for the games or technique of most American wrestlers, they just view them as tough and physical..

 

The main reason they are interested in scouting Burroughs is to figure out how to beat him. I doubt they're looking at tape trying to figure out what they can learn technically or strategically. 

 

Watching the Russian nationals and the US Open back to back, it is striking how differently they wrestle. Almost all the winners could lead with their left leg, which clearly cannot be coincidence and speaks to how carefully every element of wrestling is institutionalized in Russia. The biggest difference is how much better they are from the tie-up. We really do look like a JV squad compared to them in terms of technique and variety from the tie-up. They are so much more unpredictable when they lay their hands on you and they have so much more variety.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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