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tightwaist

My issues with Freestyle

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I think that the freestyle rules are the best rules we have seen. Sure there are a few things we could nit pick on, but I just hope UWW doesn't try to keep changing too much and mess them up again! 

 

The combination of the push out and passivity is WAY better than the stalling in folkstyle. Sure Nolf's passivity call was probably a bad one and I am sure there were a few others, but if this were a folkstyle tournament think about the number of complaints we would have about refs calling (or not calling) stalling wrong. Freestyle is much better in that regard. 

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I agree, that some of the refs, are just out of step. I watched all the matches at the recent World Cup, and after a short time you knew which refs were just going to come out and just gum up the works. I don't know what can be done, maybe some sort of review process.

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Ridiculous. You do not have to wrestle to be a good ref. 

 

I imagine there are some decent refs that haven't wrestled, but I guarantee you that the guys who are doing the NCAA finals have all been on the mat.  Experience on the mat gives you more context, so that you don't call passivity against a guy who shoots and gets caught in a front headlock.  If you haven't been in that position, you can't understand why the man in the headlock is limited in what he can do.  Watch Nolf-Hall match and tell me that guy knows what he is doing. The match took 15 minutes. If he doesn't know what he is doing, why is he ref'ing a finals match at this level? 

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The current Freestyle rules are way more watchable than folkstyle. Refs are the same no matter what style, and will blow stalling/passivity no matter what. At least in freestyle you have to wrestle in the middle of the mat, and at the end of the match. No T-shirts style "hang out to win," which can me exciting but is generally boring. 

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Here is how I think passivity "should" be called in a senior level freestyle match:

 

30-45 seconds into the match if the score is 0-0, choose the more passive wrestler for his/her warning. If no scoring continues for another 20-30 seconds, give the other wrestler a warning.

 

If no scoring continues for 30 seconds, give the first wrestler their caution for passivity and put them on the clock...

 

The alternating of warnings and cautions from one wrestler to the other "balances" out passivity calls, hopefully promoting the wrestler to score instead of defend. A 0-0 bout should not go further than 45 seconds without a warning. The first period should never end 0-0 without any passivity warnings or cautions. If it does, the officiating crew needs to be removed.

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Here is how I think passivity "should" be called in a senior level freestyle match:

 

30-45 seconds into the match if the score is 0-0, choose the more passive wrestler for his/her warning. If no scoring continues for another 20-30 seconds, give the other wrestler a warning.

 

If no scoring continues for 30 seconds, give the first wrestler their caution for passivity and put them on the clock...

 

The alternating of warnings and cautions from one wrestler to the other "balances" out passivity calls, hopefully promoting the wrestler to score instead of defend. A 0-0 bout should not go further than 45 seconds without a warning. The first period should never end 0-0 without any passivity warnings or cautions. If it does, the officiating crew needs to be removed.

 

Coach P. 

 

The first period in FS cannot end 0-0.  Someone either scores technical points or the shot clock will give someone a caution and a point. 

 

If the score is tied 0-0 at the 2-minute mark, the chairman must stop the match and the referee team has to declare someone passive and put that someone on the clock.  It would be bad if the officiating team has not given someone an "attention (warning)" by the 2-minute mark since the team is now going to pick somebody.

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Coach P. 

 

The first period in FS cannot end 0-0.  Someone either scores technical points or the shot clock will give someone a caution and a point. 

 

If the score is tied 0-0 at the 2-minute mark, the chairman must stop the match and the referee team has to declare someone passive and put that someone on the clock.  It would be bad if the officiating team has not given someone an "attention (warning)" by the 2-minute mark since the team is now going to pick somebody.

 

 

This makes sense, but doesn't address the issue of when/why passivity is called.  Jason Nolf has never been passive on the wrestling mat, but gets a call "literally" after battling for 20 seconds to finish a single leg attempt.  He initiated the action and still gets warned.  Is there a governing body that monitors & grades these officials? 

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I didn't watch the match yet, but in general the officials are trying to set up their official warnings for passivity prior to the two minute mark.  If the score is 0-0 going into the two minute mark, it isn't uncommon for both to have an passivity warning and possibly a shot clock period so maybe 3 passive calls in the 1st period.  Remember, passivity isn't stalling it is failure to score points.  A lot of movement and such may look like action but at the end of the day, is there scoring occurring?  If the answer is no, someone has to go on the clock.  It can be frustrating and difficult to see.  You could have two minutes of shot/re-shot action in which it appears both are working but are unsuccessful scoring.  Unfortunately, under the rules, one of those wrestlers is going on the clock.

 

The worse thing an officiating team can do is to have is hit that 1 minute left mark with nobody being warned and it is still 0-0.

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I have an intense dislike of a wrestler going to one knee while in the up position- for example, Dake's preferred approach to forcing the more dangerous Burroughs to approach and tie or alternatively to wait for Dake to get up. My preference would be for an "unforced" or extended drop to the knee to be automatic passivity. Folk or free, the wrestling product is better without this essentially passive tactic. I've seen at least one ref force a passive wrestler to stand up, but am unclear of the rule he used to do this. In any case it seems inconsistent enforcement.

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There is no justification for the type of passivity calls that are made by some refs.  The Nolf one being the most recent example.  If putting yourself in danger by initiating contact and taking shots isn't actually offense then the word has lost its meaning.

 

I do enjoy the freestyle product 100x more than before and maybe even more than folkstyle (maybe) but the referees get on my nerves far more than in any folkstyle matches.  They're always talking, slapping the wrestlers hands (that is my biggest pet peeve), or making terrible passivity calls. Didn't this same ref also get away with giving Cael Sanderson an official warning for objecting to that absurd passivity call?

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The fact of the matter is the Nolf passivity call - although atrocious - had NO effect on the match that finished 13-8.

 

In fact, the percentage of matches that the passivity call actually effects is ridiculously small - except with the heavies, which I can stomach.

 

I would love to see some Stan D style stats regarding points (adjusted) scored since the scoring change - they really got it right.  Of course Stan would also point out that the wrestler's will invariably adjust after a few years as they learn to "game the system" and minimize risk - scoring will decline.

 

But these are the best set of rules I've seen and I think they've got the refs involvement about exactly correct - which is no small feat.  They push the action without getting involved in deciding the match in most all the cases.

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Ironically the low threshold for a tech is increasing excitement. The more tactical wrestlers are finding it is safer and easier to " finish" a match than stall out a lead.

 

Yeah, but if you trap an arm and gut a guy 4 straight times...is that really dominance?  In freestyle, I realize it is...but that is why I will always prefer folk.  Nolf-Hall in folkstyle goes to Nolf probably 90% of the time.   8 or 9 of Hall's points came from exposures that mean nothing in folk.  Nolf dominated the takedown battle. 

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Yeah, but if you trap an arm and gut a guy 4 straight times...is that really dominance?  In freestyle, I realize it is...but that is why I will always prefer folk.  Nolf-Hall in folkstyle goes to Nolf probably 90% of the time.   8 or 9 of Hall's points came from exposures that mean nothing in folk.  Nolf dominated the takedown battle. 

Hall would have wrestled differently if it were folkstyle. 

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Dominance? Maybe not... I think of the trap arm gut as a "finishing" move much like a pinning hold.

 

Regarding styles, to each their own. You might not like exposure points, I don't like seeing guys on their backs without penalty as in many folkstyle matches. No right or wrong, just preference.

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Yeah, but if you trap an arm and gut a guy 4 straight times...is that really dominance?  In freestyle, I realize it is...but that is why I will always prefer folk.  Nolf-Hall in folkstyle goes to Nolf probably 90% of the time.   8 or 9 of Hall's points came from exposures that mean nothing in folk.  Nolf dominated the takedown battle. 

Hall dominated him, free or folk.  Neutral or on the mat.  Nolf had the TD without actual control in the first(Hall actually won that sequence 3-2) and the rest of his TDs were meaningless because the match was already decided,  I doubt Nolf could take him down in folkstyle.

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There's a very good chance Hall and Nolf will meet in the best of two finals of the junior WTTs. If they do, I think there's a good chance Hall beats him by TF one or both times. I think that Nolf was pretty amazing at getting Hall off balance and getting in on his legs, but I don't think lightning will strike twice.

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I will put money on Nolf beating Hall in folkstyle, assuming they wrestle.  Nolf got to his legs so many times, it is inevitable he finishes or gets into scrambles where exposure is meaningless.   Nolf has never wrestled freestyle before.  His motor is endless, and he will simply wear Hall down.  Put money on it!

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Nolf got to his legs so many times, it is inevitable he finishes or gets into scrambles where exposure is meaningless.

 

You don't get points for getting into scrambles, and there is no such thing as an inevitable finish on Hall, from what I've seen.

 

I wouldn't put money on either guy, personally, but unfortunately we won't see this for a while unless Hall enters a college open Nolf is at.

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