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Does California produce the most talented wrestlers?

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Ed Ruth - Kurt Angle - Stan Dziedzic - Michael J. Caruso - Edward B. Eichelberger - Mike Frick.

 

A few more wrestlers who might make an all time pa list!

Caruso was NJ. St Benedict's Prep in Newark.

 

Eichelberger went to Granby HS in VA.

 

Others from PA that could be considered for the all-time list:

 

3x champ Ed Peery, 51-1 career record

2x champ Dick DiBatista, 137-0 career college & FS record.  WW II interrupted his college career

2x champ Jack Cuvo

2x champ Pat Santoro

3x champ Ricky Bonomo

2x champ Jim Nance

2x champ Greg Ruth

2x champ Geoff Baum

2x champ Tony Gizoni

2x champ Jake Herbert (3-2-1-1, career collegiate record 135-4; career PA record 138-18)

Edited by lu_alum

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This is a bit easier than you think to figure out. It's not an exact science as no one would have the same list but try to list your top 25 wrestlers of all-time and then list the top 25 current wrestlers. Break them down into where they are from and you could have a reasonable answer.

 

All-Time-----------------------------------------------------------------------Current---------------------------------------------------

1.)Sanderson-Utah 1.)Dierenger-Wisconsin

2.)Dake-New York 2.)I. Martinez-California

3.)Gable-Iowa 3.)Gwiazdowski-New York

4.)Hodge-Oklahoma 4.)Dean-Michigan

5.)Uetake-Japan 5.)Brewer-Missouri

6.)Stieber-Ohio 6.)Megaludis-Pennsylvania

7.)Lee Kemp-Ohio 7.)Bo Jordan-Ohio

8.)Pat Smith-Oklahoma 8.)J'Den Cox-Missouri

9.)John Smith-Oklahoma 9.)Jason Tsirtsis-Indiana

10.)Haselrig-Pennsylvania 10.)Tomasello-Ohio

11.)Joe Williams-Illinois 11.)Snyder-Maryland

12.)Schalles-Pennsylvania 12.)McIntosh-California

13.)Mark Churella-Michigan 13.)Coon-Michigan

14.)Tom Brands-Nebraska 14.)Nathaniel Brown-Pennsylvania

15.)McIlravy-South Dakota 15.)Cory Clark-Iowa

16.)Greg Jones-Pennsylvania 16.)Realbuto-New York

17.)Stepen Abas-California 17.)Ian Miller-Ohio

18.)Ed Banach-New York 18.)Gilman-Iowa

19.)Gene Mills-New York 19.)Garrett-California

20.)Ben Askren-Wisconsin 20.)Retherford-Pennsylvania

21.)Jake Varner-California 21.)Medbery-Colorado

22.)Stephen Neal-California 22.)Z. Jordan-Ohio

23.)Gray Simons-Virginia 23.)Hartmann-Washington

24.)Mark Schultz-California 24.)Brascetta-Ohio

25.)Burroughs-New Jersey 25.)Moisey-Pennsylvania

 

 

 

Combining both the Top3 are still the top 3: PA, OH and CA all have 7.

He may have had a nice run at the 2015 NCAA, but there is no way Zeke Moisey is the fourth best active PA guy. Others to consider include:

 

D. Cruz

Beckman

Nolf

Minotti

E. Henderson

Gulibon

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My bad on Caruso - I should know such things since I went to Lehigh for grad school. Still, it could be that the only reason he didn't win four NC, was freshman ineligibility rule,. And Ruth won 3 might have won four except for injury default, bobby weaver, angle were freestyle gold medalists, and if Dziedzic lost more than a couple matches in college I'd be surprised. I was more intrigued with formulating a top 25 wrestlers list than which state produces more actually. The list presented is good but I'd include more old timers (Bill Noll - Iowa wrestler and psu coach comes to mind). Also, It is hard for me to leave 3x champs off a list if your criteria is college careers, hard to leave off world or Olympic champs if your criteria is how did they do internationally. And although I agree that technique is generally improved for modern wrestlers, I believe also that you take the great competitors from the past and give them modern advantages and they would adapt very quickly. So do you measure achievement or automatically give moderns an edge? There are some wrestlers who arguably would have been even better in the modern era than they were (Bobby Douglas?) had disadvantages he encountered (due to race) not existed. This stuff is fun, but if I take it too seriously it makes my head hurt

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Caruso was NJ. St Benedict's Prep in Newark.

 

Eichelberger went to Granby HS in VA.

 

Others from PA that could be considered for the all-time list:

 

3x champ Ed Peery, 51-1 career record

2x champ Dick DiBatista, 137-0 career college & FS record.  WW II interrupted his college career

2x champ Jack Cuvo

2x champ Pat Santoro

3x champ Ricky Bonomo

2x champ Jim Nance

2x champ Greg Ruth

2x champ Geoff Baum

2x champ Tony Gizoni

2x champ Jake Herbert (3-2-1-1, career collegiate record 135-4; career PA record 138-18)

Also Mike Frick wrestled in New Jersey. His son's wrestled at Nazareth High School in PA

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Ed Ruth - Kurt Angle - Stan Dziedzic - Michael J. Caruso - Edward B. Eichelberger - Mike Frick.

 

A few more wrestlers who might make an all time pa list!

Mike Frick wrestled in New Jersey.  Went to college at Lehigh.  His son's wrestled at Nazareth HS in PA.

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...And Ruth won 3 might have won four except for injury default... bobby weaver... The list presented is good but I'd include more old timers (Bill Noll - Iowa wrestler and psu coach comes to mind).

No way the INJ DEF cost Ruth a frosh title. Amuchastegui was destroying him when the injury (?) occurred.

 

Bobby Weaver was just too small for the weight AND had a guy named Gene Mills to contend with.

 

I think you meant Bill Koll (Cornell coach Rob's dad)

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No way the INJ DEF cost Ruth a frosh title. Amuchastegui was destroying him when the injury (?)

Key word was might - Ruth was dangerous enough to dig out of a hole. And with a different ref the hyperextended knee and back points may not have happened. I stand by what I wrote. And I'm not taking anything away from Amuch .... He was winning outright and most probably it would have been too much to overcome.... But given the shots that Ruth had early (but didn't finish) he had some options on his feet to catch up..

 

 

And koll was a typo - thanks

 

And I listed weaver because he won international gold - does the U.S. Have 25 winners of Olympic gold in freestyle total. Point being, is worth consideration regardless of his college credentials?

Edited by swoopdown

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Burley, Mocco, Hahn...I heard all of these guys were pretty good?  Kellen Russell has won some matches over the years, right?

Baumgartner is arguably the best US wrestler in history, does he count?  Mean Gene did some things, didn't he?

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Hey Grappler69, this is the college wrestling forum!

 

Make a list like that for PA, OH, Iowa, Oklahoma and then talk to me. Probably NJ and NY as well but I'm certainly not going to waste my time. California produces a lot of great wrestlers, but trying to argue it is the single best state based on any reasonable criteria is just stupid. You California clowns need to go away before you turn every wrestling fan outside the golden state against your guys.

I definitely wasn't saying CA is pound for pound the best state.  Maybe others were.  I'm saying CA's best reach a higher level than other states' best.  On a technique basis anyway.  As for 4x NCAA champs..well Stieber just did it and I very well may take Pico (a HS kid from CA)in a match head to head.  Today.

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So many ways to measure things and depending what you choose can vary the outcome. Clearly PA shines when it comes to #ncaa AA's. 

 

Not saying this is more valid, but closer to the OP's claim about reaching the very elite status, one could look at which state has produced the most Olympic/World medals over a given time period. But even that has gray areas. For example, does NJ claim Banach bros (they were born there) or does NY (where they moved to, while young and got started in wrestling)?

 

For simplicity's sake, I just looked at Gold medalists only for Olympic/World tournaments. I also gave the state where the wrestler was born the credit (arguable, I know). Another potential weakness is 1 superstar can singlehandedly put the state near the top (e.g. Smith, Baumgartner)  Totaling all medalists would improve that, but I'm too lazy the count the silver and bronze tonight. Anyway, here's what I got:

 

Since 1970 (last 44 years):

NJ - 11

OK - 8

CA - 7

IA - 6

PA - 4

NY - 3

OH - 3

 

Since 1992 (last 22years):

NJ - 6

IA - 4

PA - 2

CA - 2

 

By this measure, flawed as it may be, NJ does seem to shine. 

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Here is a list I update after every world. It's an attempt at being objective and ranking USA all time greats. You can argue with the scoring criteria but overall I think it gives a good comprehensive list of the biggest names in the sport. I'll post the home states as far as what I know or can find and we shall see what we shall see. 

 

Olympic Champion = 7 points

World Champion = 6 points

Olympic Silver/Bronze = 5 points

World Silver/Bronze = 4 points

NCAA National Title = 2 points

NCAA Finalist = 1 point

NCAA All-American = 0.5 point

 

 

1. Bruce Baumgartner (70) 2 Olympic Gold/3 World Gold/1 Olympic Silver/3 World Silver/1 Olympic Bronze/3 World Bronze/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA Finals

2. John Smith (43) 2 Olympic Gold/4 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

3. Dave Schultz (36) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/3 World Silver/2 World Bronze/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA AA

4. Lee Kemp (29) 3 World Gold/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

5. Jordan Burroughs (27.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA

6. Mark Schultz (25) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/3 NCAA Titles

7. Terry Brands (22) 2 World Gold/1 Olympic Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

8. Kevin Jackson (21.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/1 NCAA Final/3 NCAA AA

9.   Kenny Monday (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Gold/1 NCAA Title     

      Lincoln Mcllravy (20) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Chris Campbell (20) 1 Olympic Bronze/ 1 World Gold/1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Ben Peterson (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles

      John Peterson (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze

      Wayne Wells (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/1 World Silver/1 NCAA Title/ 1 NCAA Final

15. Tom Brands (19.5) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/3 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA

      Sammie Henson (19.5) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA

17. Cael Sanderson (19) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Silver/4 NCAA Titles

18. Dan Gable (18) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Kurt Angle (18) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Melvin Douglas (18) 1 World Gold/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA championships

21. Jake Varner (17) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/2 NCAA Finals

22. Barry Davis (15.5) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/3 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA

23. Cary Kolat (14.5) 1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

24. Ed Banach (14) 1 Olympic Gold/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Finals

      Greg Gibson (14) 2 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Finals

26. Randy Lewis (12.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

27. Stephen Neal (11.5) 1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

28. Lou Banach (11) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles

      Bill Smith (11) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles

30. Jake Herbert (9.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

31. Coleman Scott (9) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 NCAA Title/1 NCAA FInal/2 NCAA AA

      Don Pritzlaff (9) 1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/ 2 NCAA AA

33. Bill Zadick (8.5) 1 World Title/1 NCAA Title/ 1 NCAA AA

      Kerry McCoy (8.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA

35. Tervel Dlagnev(8) 2 World Bronze

      Royce Alger (8) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles

 

 

*Honorable Mention: Yojiro Uetake-Obata (20) 2 Olympic Gold (Japan)/3 NCAA Titles

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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NJ: 6

PA: 5

IA: 5

CA: 5

 

So this falls in with what Rosell came up with, NJ could be considered the best at producing elite talent, although it's by a small margin. CA is very good at producing top tier talent but clearly it is not the best, especially when you consider population. IA's results, on the other hand, are impressive in that regard.

 

 

1. NJ

2. OK

3. CA

4. OH

5. NJ

6. CA

7. IA

8. NY

9. OK

9. ND

9. NJ

9. WI

9. WI

9. TX

15. IA

15. MI

17. UT

18. IA

18. PA

18. KA

21. CA

22. IA

23. PA

24. NJ

24. CA

26. SD

27. CA

28. NJ

28. OR

30. PA

31. PA

32. NJ

33. MT

33. PA

35. BG

35. IA

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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Since this is the college board.  How would a match between Valencia and Marstellar fair?  Staying on topic with the "greats" from each state.

I think he has a problem with any of the top tier guys until that gas tank is fixed.  

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I think he has a problem with any of the top tier guys until that gas tank is fixed.  

 

I don't think so....Marstellar is just getting into his groove. Are you saying that you think Valencia will beat Marstellar????

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I don't think so....Marstellar is just getting into his groove. Are you saying that you think Valencia will beat Marstellar????

 

That would be an interesting matchup. Watching Valencia at US Open (beat Sponseller by 5, TF over Godley, TF over Caldwell, and kept it close with Howe), I wouldn't bet against him.

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Key word was might - Ruth was dangerous enough to dig out of a hole. And with a different ref the hyperextended knee and back points may not have happened. I stand by what I wrote. And I'm not taking anything away from Amuch .... He was winning outright and most probably it would have been too much to overcome.... But given the shots that Ruth had early (but didn't finish) he had some options on his feet to catch up..

 

 

And koll was a typo - thanks

 

And I listed weaver because he won international gold - does the U.S. Have 25 winners of Olympic gold in freestyle total. Point being, is worth consideration regardless of his college credentials?

 

A different ref and maybe no knee injury and no back points???  You do realize that the bent leg turk Amuch was using was on the RIGHT leg every time and Ruth's LEFT leg was the one he was limping on and was later taped up.  The only place I see where it appeared Ruth's left knee was in danger was on the single leg counter by Amuch in the first period and the official did stop that with no points.  It's possible Ruth hurt his knee at that point but giving up that bent leg turk 3 times is not conducive to winning a match.

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Here is a list I update after every world. It's an attempt at being objective and ranking USA all time greats. You can argue with the scoring criteria but overall I think it gives a good comprehensive list of the biggest names in the sport. I'll post the home states as far as what I know or can find and we shall see what we shall see. 

 

Olympic Champion = 7 points

World Champion = 6 points

Olympic Silver/Bronze = 5 points

World Silver/Bronze = 4 points

NCAA National Title = 2 points

NCAA Finalist = 1 point

NCAA All-American = 0.5 point

 

 

1. Bruce Baumgartner (70) 2 Olympic Gold/3 World Gold/1 Olympic Silver/3 World Silver/1 Olympic Bronze/3 World Bronze/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA Finals

2. John Smith (43) 2 Olympic Gold/4 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

3. Dave Schultz (36) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/3 World Silver/2 World Bronze/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA AA

4. Lee Kemp (29) 3 World Gold/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

5. Jordan Burroughs (27.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA

6. Mark Schultz (25) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/3 NCAA Titles

7. Terry Brands (22) 2 World Gold/1 Olympic Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

8. Kevin Jackson (21.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/1 NCAA Final/3 NCAA AA

9.   Kenny Monday (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Gold/1 NCAA Title     

      Lincoln Mcllravy (20) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Chris Campbell (20) 1 Olympic Bronze/ 1 World Gold/1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Ben Peterson (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles

      John Peterson (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze

      Wayne Wells (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/1 World Silver/1 NCAA Title/ 1 NCAA Final

15. Tom Brands (19.5) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/3 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA

      Sammie Henson (19.5) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA

17. Cael Sanderson (19) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Silver/4 NCAA Titles

18. Dan Gable (18) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Kurt Angle (18) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final

      Melvin Douglas (18) 1 World Gold/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA championships

21. Jake Varner (17) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/2 NCAA Finals

22. Barry Davis (15.5) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/3 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA

23. Cary Kolat (14.5) 1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

24. Ed Banach (14) 1 Olympic Gold/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Finals

      Greg Gibson (14) 2 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Finals

26. Randy Lewis (12.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

27. Stephen Neal (11.5) 1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

28. Lou Banach (11) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles

      Bill Smith (11) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles

30. Jake Herbert (9.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA

31. Coleman Scott (9) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 NCAA Title/1 NCAA FInal/2 NCAA AA

      Don Pritzlaff (9) 1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/ 2 NCAA AA

33. Bill Zadick (8.5) 1 World Title/1 NCAA Title/ 1 NCAA AA

      Kerry McCoy (8.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA

35. Tervel Dlagnev(8) 2 World Bronze

      Royce Alger (8) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles

 

 

*Honorable Mention: Yojiro Uetake-Obata (20) 2 Olympic Gold (Japan)/3 NCAA Titles

not that it is related to the Cali vs the rest debate, but shouldn't Rick Sanders be on this list?

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