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treep2000

USA Freestyle @ 74kg - 2015-2016 Timeframe

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Thought I'd wrap multiple threads into one, or at least make an attempt.  74kg in the US has been the closest 'lock' at World Gold that we've had for quite some time.  Burroughs is the king of this castle, and there's no doubt at this point in his reign.  

 

HOWEVER, if Oklahoma State has a 'logjam' at 165lbs, then what do we have going on at 74kg for Freestyle?  The depth here is something that I honestly do not recall having seen.  I'm going to list some names, and some that aren't 'quite' in the weight class 'yet', just to demonstrate what a monster we have on our hands (anyone ready to introduce 70kg or 79kg at the OLY level?  Please?

 

Top Tier:

1.) Burroughs - 'nuff said

2.) Dake - Over DT, based on REAL matches, and not the hypothetical kind

3.) Taylor - Under Dake, based on REAL matches...

 

So... top 3 can beat anyone at anytime, except DT with Tsargush.

 

Next Tier:

4.) Howe - makes sense

5.) Valencia - new kid on the block that wowed us all last weekend

6.) Caldwell - Very strong.  University Gold, accolades galore.  To have a University Gold guy as our 6th best is pretty awesome.

 

So... the next three are studs in their own right, by virtue of their own accomplishments, history, and 12-24 month prospects.

 

Next Tier:

7.) Dieringer - Didn't show up last weekend.  If he sets his feet on the map, everyone under the Top 3 moves down a spot

8.) Miller - See Caldwell matches from last year, prior to Caldwell winning Gold

9.) BoJo - Super Talented.  Not much FS experience.  If he dives in, he can bring his skill set with him, and will be a force as well.

 

So... now we have 9 REALLY solid guys, all stuck at the same weight class, and any one of these guys, in any other conversation, are often times considered the "king" of their respective domain.  

 

But Wait!  There's two more I want to throw in...

 

10.)  Mark Hall - OK OK OK... yes... kid's GOING to be a senior in High School.  BUT... this same "kid" just knocked down a loaded Junior 74kg class that was filled with the next coming's at their respective schools (I.e. Nolf, Marstellar, Massa, JJ Chavez, etc. etc. etc.).  The "kid" wins.  What I like about him is that he doesn't have the 180-0 record coming into college age.  He's tasted defeat.  He's tasted what it's like to lose, and absolutely despises it.  His hunger, and his topside make him a threat to this class... maybe not in 2015... but 2016, he could manage a few upsets against the guys listed above... unless he grows into 86kg next year like the next person who could also grow... 

 

LASTLY... and hear me out... 

 

11.) Pico - The timeframe listed is 2015-2016 in the subject line.  How old is Aaron?  Has he stopped growing yet?  Something tells me that 65kg is going to be just a 'tad' too small at this time next year.  With 70kg not being a 'real' class in 2016, oh where does Aaron go? 

 

If all of these pan out, the relative amount of 'talent' around the 74kg class is astonishing.  I'm not old enough know, nor researched enough to figure out... but... have we ever had a weight class where so much real and prospective depth exists?  Would love to know everyone's take on this. 

 

Lastly... My apologies if I offended anyone in listing the order... I think we all can agree on the Top 3 at this point... the remainder?  I'm sure there's some massaging and sliding around in rankings. All in all... and no matter how you slice it, this weight is stacked...

 

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1- JB. Guys have come up with strategies to keep the score close with him, but nobody has put up comparable international results. JB stands alone. 

 

 

2- DT. Win over Howe at the 2015 US Open. Got teched by Tsargush twice.

3- Howe. 2015 Yarygin runner up. By all accounts got jobbed there. 2015 US Open runner up. 

4- Valencia. 2015 US open third place. Lost to Howe, teched Caldwell. 

5- Dake. Had a decent start in 2013, but has not had many recent results. He's this high on the list because he beat DT and Howe in 2013.

 

 

6- Caldwell, got teched by Valencia

 

unknown- Deiringer. He'd be tough. 2013 junior world silver medalist.  

Edited by Katie

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at the trials i am hoping the seeding is:

taylor

howe

dake

valencia

dieringer (if he qualifies)

miller (hope he goes universities and qualifies)

caldwell

 

lots of what ifs on the qualifying still and i fully expect valencia to try to make the junior team instead of seniors, so getting to see some of the exciting quarters isn't going to happen. i would be satisfied with taylor/dieringer dake/howe semis.

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not much international action from any Americans at 74 since 2013 except Burroughs world bronze and Howe's 2nd at Yarygin. that's the sucky thing about international wrestling, so few events and participation by top names. Dake won the Cuban tournament in 2014 and Taylor was 5th in Turkey this year. cant think of much else. 

 

anyway, Dake looked fine to me and my money is on him to win the mini tournament and lose to JB in the best of 3. but we'll see, i wouldn't be shocked if Taylor or Howe beat him but i won't expect it. 

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What has taylor done to get him ranked over dake? Even with a broken hand dake beat tsargush who has easily teched taylor twice now. Taylor hasn't even wrestled in that many more events even though he has had no apparent injuries ala dake.

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1- JB. Guys have come up with strategies to keep the score close with him, but nobody has put up comparable international results. JB stands alone. 

 

 

2- DT. Win over Howe at the 2015 US Open. Got teched by Tsargush twice.

3- Howe. 2015 Yarygin runner up. By all accounts got jobbed there. 2015 US Open runner up. 

4- Valencia. 2015 US open third place. Lost to Howe, teched Caldwell. 

5- Dake. Had a decent start in 2013, but has not had many recent results. He's this high on the list because he beat DT and Howe in 2013.

 

 

6- Caldwell, got teched by Valencia

 

unknown- Deiringer. He'd be tough. 2013 junior world silver medalist.  

 

No.

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Pretty much agree with OP, but would add.... as long as Pico's name is being thrown in as a possibly growing into 74kg or 70 kg, I'd add IMar in that group as well. Obviously too small for 74kg at present, but at 70kg, he could be in the mix.

 

I'm a Dake fan, but it's hard for me to favor him over Taylor right now. Not based on past matches or hypotheticals, but just because Dake has had two fairly serious injuries, and a lot of down time, making it hard to gauge where he's at. Guess we'll know in a month. 74kg at OTT's should be exciting.

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What has taylor done to get him ranked over dake? Even with a broken hand dake beat tsargush who has easily teched taylor twice now. Taylor hasn't even wrestled in that many more events even though he has had no apparent injuries ala dake.

 

 

He just won the US open.   

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I love this thread, great idea.

 

If this thread is about predicting who will win as opposed to whose results score highest then my rankings are

 

1 JB

2 Dake

3 DT

4 Howe

 

Then we have the who the heck knows in no particular order: Deiringer, Imart, Valencia, Hall, Donald Duck, Big Bird and so on.

 

I think predicting where a 65kg 18 year old who has not made a senior team might be in a year or two is pure speculation. You can't put Valencia on the list and leave out Hall. The only difference between the two is that Valencia chose to go senior. Given who was there and not had Hall gone senior and Valencia junior the results would likely have been Hall third in seniors and Valencia the junior champ. As for Donald Duck and Big Bird, we have to have them in the mix because they might decide to get into freestyle and they're beloved childhood friends of mine.

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Some things never change, still obsessed with David Taylor I see. Shame your lost bet with me didn't keep you off the forum a lot longer scribe; 3 posts and nothing but your typical drivel. 

 

Dake has done nothing of note for almost two years. If he wanted to improve his standing, he could of wrestled at the Open this year but chose an inferior competition. Why should that be rewarded when it comes to seeds? He needs to reestablish himself and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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What has taylor done to get him ranked over dake? Even with a broken hand dake beat tsargush who has easily teched taylor twice now. Taylor hasn't even wrestled in that many more events even though he has had no apparent injuries ala dake.

 

Taylor won the US Open. That guaranteed him the number one seed in the challenge tournament. The only question is how to rank Howe, Valencia, and Dake. 

 

Howe got second at Yarygin and the US Open. Those are impressive accomplishments. Valencia took the time to go to the US Open, and placed third, teching Caldwell along the way. Dake's results this year? He beat high school junior Mason Manville and Kyle Simaz. People keep bringing up his win over Tsargush, but he also only placed fifth at that tournament - The Golden Grand Prix. And it was in 2013. 

 

Look, Dake had an impressive run a few years ago. But so did Varner. And Varner just got beaten by a young up and comer. You gotta keep up with what's going on now. IMO if you don't wrestle, you shouldn't be seeded highly based on what you did years ago. 

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neither Taylor nor Dake have done much. The US Open win against Howe is nice but that's not a win that would vault Taylor over Dake imo. Dake's had injuries so that's a big question mark. but he looked fine wrestling the Armenian champ in Greco in New York fwiw.

 

DT earned he #1 seed with the Open win, but with 8 guys in the bracket and Burroughs already waiting for the challenge series i dont think seeds will matter too much. just kind of nice to have the hype back to be honest!

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Thanks everyone.  What this thread was initially about was the perceived depth at 74kg over the next two years, especially when you DO throw in the possibility of Hall and Pico, let alone IMART and so on.  

 

My question still remains.  Have we as USA Wrestling ever seen real or perceived depth of this magnitude at a single weight?  Please note my caveat of 'perceived' depth.  Yes... many on this list haven't had international success/experience/results, however, the 10-11 folks on my initial post are all considered "beasts" in their own right, etc. etc. etc.

 

So... back on topic... thoughts on the depth?

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My two cents ... I don't think the depth is all that great once you get past JB and Dake. DT has not exactly shined internationally and is ahead of everyone except for Dake and if he is ahead of Dake it's mainly because Dake has come down a notch. The Dake of late 2013 was ahead of DT. It's not clear that DT or Howe can medal. Maybe, maybe not, but I wouldn't bet without some nice odds.

 

In terms 74kg the Kemp/Schultz era followed by the Monday/Schultz era were amazing. The 1987, 1988, 1989 world team trials between Monday and Schultz were epic.

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