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treep2000

USA Freestyle @ 74kg - 2015-2016 Timeframe

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I agree that internationally depth is not that great given how poorly DT has done against the top foreign guys. But domestically, it is really deep. When the #3 guy can push the reigning Olympic and world champ as hard as DT did last year and Howe is consistently a score away from beating 2 and 3, that's pretty deep.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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My two cents ... I don't think the depth is all that great once you get past JB and Dake. DT has not exactly shined internationally and is ahead of everyone except for Dake and if he is ahead of Dake it's mainly because Dake has come down a notch. The Dake of late 2013 was ahead of DT. It's not clear that DT or Howe can medal. Maybe, maybe not, but I wouldn't bet without some nice odds.

 

In terms 74kg the Kemp/Schultz era followed by the Monday/Schultz era were amazing. The 1987, 1988, 1989 world team trials between Monday and Schultz were epic.

 

How is Dake a notch above DT and Howe? What exactly has he accomplished in freestyle? Here's what I can recall off the top: 

 

1) 2013 WTTs. Runner up. He got by Howe in OT, and then loses to Burroughs in two straight matches. The first was a tech in under two minutes. In the second match Dake wrestled defensively and kept the score close, didn't score any points on his own offense. 

 

2) 2013 Golden Grand Prix. Fifth place. He beat Tsargush and lost to Aliyev and Gadzhiev and never faced the winner of the tournament, Kurbanov. Tsargush took Dake down pretty easily and then inexplicably gave up. I get that Dake's hand was hurt, so it's tough to tell where he was really at. But based on results this showing does not vault Dake into Burroughs's league. 

 

3) 2014 Cero Pellado. First place. None of the world's best were here. 

 

4) 2015 Northeast Regionals. First place. Beat high school junior Mason Manville. 

 

As far as I can tell, Dake was really even with Howe back in 2013, and then hasn't done much since. (Howe's 2015 Yarygin performance was more impressive than what Dake did at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix.) He also does not appear in the UWW freestyle rankings. To suspect Dake will do really well in the future is one thing. But to place him among the world's best at this point is premature. 

Edited by Katie

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I wonder how the beat the streets match up are going to go. looks like its Burroughs and Taylor vs Lopez and Quintana. I think I'd rather see Taylor face Lopez and get a better gauge of world class comp. 

 

and then thankfully we only have to wait a month for the trials.

 

next year Valencia could really make things interesting. he's got that loss to Hall but between Valencia at the 2014 JR worlds and this US Open I can't think of anybody more impressive from neutral. besides that one other 74 kg American who is pretty decent with doubles as well. 

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Your portrayal of the 2013 WTT's 2nd Dake v Burroughs match isn't very accurate, and doesn't give Dake enough credit.

 

The first match was indeed a tech.

 

But the second match saw Dake adjust his style, and it was extremely close with Dake hitting offensive moves twice.

 

Burroughs was leading 1-0 on a pushout, but near the end of the first period, Dake hit a 3 point move to lead 3-1. At the break it was 4-4.

 

Dake got another TD and was leading 6-4 with under a minute remaining in match. Burroughs got a TD to tie 6-6. The match went into OT, with Burroughs scoring a TD.

 

Not saying Dake beats Taylor next month, given his absence from competition, but that 2nd match, imho, showed a healthy Dake at his best, and Burroughs had his hands full.

 

 

 

 

 

How is Dake a notch above DT and Howe? What exactly has he accomplished in freestyle? Here's what I can recall off the top: 

 

1) 2013 WTTs. Runner up. He got by Howe in OT, and then loses to Burroughs in two straight matches. The first was a tech in under two minutes. In the second match Dake wrestled defensively and kept the score close, didn't score any points on his own offense. 

 

2) 2013 Golden Grand Prix. Fifth place. He beat Tsargush and lost to Aliyev and Gadzhiev and never faced the winner of the tournament, Kurbanov. Tsargush took Dake down pretty easily and then inexplicably gave up. I get that Dake's hand was hurt, so it's tough to tell where he was really at. But based on results this showing does not vault Dake into Burroughs's league. 

 

3) 2014 Cero Pellado. First place. None of the world's best were here. 

 

4) 2015 Northeast Regionals. First place. Beat high school junior Mason Manville. 

 

As far as I can tell, Dake was really even with Howe back in 2013, and then hasn't done much since. (Howe's 2015 Yarygin performance was more impressive than what Dake did at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix.) He also does not appear in the UWW freestyle rankings. To suspect Dake will do really well in the future is one thing. But to place him among the world's best at this point is premature. 

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Your portrayal of the 2013 WTT's 2nd Dake v Burroughs match isn't very accurate, and doesn't give Dake enough credit.

 

The first match was indeed a tech.

 

But the second match saw Dake adjust his style, and it was extremely close with Dake hitting offensive moves twice.

 

Burroughs was leading 1-0 on a pushout, but near the end of the first period, Dake hit a 3 point move to lead 3-1. At the break it was 4-4.

 

Dake got another TD and was leading 6-4 with under a minute remaining in match. Burroughs got a TD to tie 6-6. The match went into OT, with Burroughs scoring a TD.

 

Not saying Dake beats Taylor next month, given his absence from competition, but that 2nd match, imho, showed a healthy Dake at his best, and Burroughs had his hands full.

 

 

 

 

Rosie,

 

It sounds like Dake wrestled Burroughs almost as tough as Taylor did, when he put the Olympic champion to his back twice and led by 3 with seconds remaining, only to suffer a mental lapse and lose by a point at the buzzer.    

 

I like Dake.   He is a supreme talent, but right now he needs a lot of proving to de before we crown him the 2nd coming.   

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Some of you David Taylor lovers just wish Dake was never born. Clearly still bitter.

 

I think the points many people are trying to make is not necessarily that Taylor is better, but that Taylor's resume for this cycle is superior to Dake's. Clearly recency matters in US seeding as evidenced by Herbert's seed at the Open. Of course USA wrestling was fully aware of Jake's accomplishments, but he has just gotten back into wrestling in the last few months. We all know Dake's record against Taylor, but Taylor has a better resume over the past year. No one will be surprised if Dake wins the challenge tourney, but that doesn't mean he should be the 1 seed. This gets back to a point that TR Foley made last year or two years ago. If Americans want to be ranked by UWW, they have to compete more often outside America. Seeds are based on resume, and Taylor's recent results outweigh Dake's.

 

I'm also surprised there's no mention of IMar this thread. I know we went 157 this year and got teched by Valencia last year, but that doesn't mean he can't improve and bulk up to 74kg. Not saying he wins anything beyond college right now, but I expect him to progress into a contender by 2020.

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I just hate these long gaps between competition for all of these guys. And then, we only get to see one go at it, at Worlds.

yeah the international competition schedule leaves a lot to be desired. there is not even one tournament where all the best wrestlers compete. the one tournament that matters (everything else is an exhibition and will get discounted if someone has a good showing elsewhere but then doesn't medal in the worlds or olympics) is hindered by the fact that the best wrestling nations like Russia and Iran only send one wrestler, leaving a whole bunch of elite guys at home. also when the asian games are scheduled some countries only send their 2nd string guys to the UWW worlds. 

 

then we have 1 match every 2 years and that is supposed to sustain a rivalry. or we're supposed to come up with any kind of decent ranking system. its impossible. you can use all available information and come up with a best guess but it's useless to try and say with any confidence where anyone rates with regard to someone else. 

 

sorry to be so negative, guess it just annoyed me this morning thinking about it. 

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Seed them however you want, but I'll take Dake coming out on top of DT until i see something to makes be think otherwise, like a DT win.  Both healthy, I think Dake takes it hands down. The fact is, DT looks like a different wrestler against Dake, JB, and the top international wrestlers.  It wouldn't shock me to see Howe beat him next time they wrestle.

 

The interesting thing here is that we spend a lot of time discussing who will be the heir to JB at that weight - Dake, Taylor or Howe?  Yet, if JB can hold on through 2016, I think the next no.1 at that weight may not be from that trio at all, but could be from Dieringer, Valencia, etc.  

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I think the points many people are trying to make is not necessarily that Taylor is better, but that Taylor's resume for this cycle is superior to Dake's. Clearly recency matters in US seeding as evidenced by Herbert's seed at the Open. Of course USA wrestling was fully aware of Jake's accomplishments, but he has just gotten back into wrestling in the last few months. We all know Dake's record against Taylor, but Taylor has a better resume over the past year. No one will be surprised if Dake wins the challenge tourney, but that doesn't mean he should be the 1 seed. This gets back to a point that TR Foley made last year or two years ago. If Americans want to be ranked by UWW, they have to compete more often outside America. Seeds are based on resume, and Taylor's recent results outweigh Dake's.

 

I'm also surprised there's no mention of IMar this thread. I know we went 157 this year and got teched by Valencia last year, but that doesn't mean he can't improve and bulk up to 74kg. Not saying he wins anything beyond college right now, but I expect him to progress into a contender by 2020.

 

Good points. Where someone is seeded takes into account recent accomplishments, as it should. And that doesn't guarantee a win. I hope Taylor and Dake meet up next month. With Howe and Valencia, that is one awesome weight class.

 

I did mention Imar on pg 1 of this thread. He impressed the heck out of me at ncaa. Undefeated RS fr with wins over Ness, Green and everyone else. He's too small for 74kg right now, but who knows where he'll be in a year or two. At the least, I gotta believe he could compete  well at 70 kg.

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Rosie,

 

It sounds like Dake wrestled Burroughs almost as tough as Taylor did, when he put the Olympic champion to his back twice and led by 3 with seconds remaining, only to suffer a mental lapse and lose by a point at the buzzer.    

 

I like Dake.   He is a supreme talent, but right now he needs a lot of proving to de before we crown him the 2nd coming.   

 

Cletus=suzie, just curious.... who is crowning Dake the second coming?

 

And for the record, I have no problem with DT being a higher seed than Dake at WTT's, despite being 0-3 (or is it 0-4, I lost track) against him. 

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Thanks everyone. What this thread was initially about was the perceived depth at 74kg over the next two years, especially when you DO throw in the possibility of Hall and Pico, let alone IMART and so on.

 

My question still remains. Have we as USA Wrestling ever seen real or perceived depth of this magnitude at a single weight? Please note my caveat of 'perceived' depth. Yes... many on this list haven't had international success/experience/results, however, the 10-11 folks on my initial post are all considered "beasts" in their own right, etc. etc. etc.

 

So... back on topic... thoughts on the depth?

 

 

We only have depth at 74kg relative to our other weight classes. In terms of the proven worlds elite, all we have is JB.

 

At 74kg we have some tough guys and some unknown guys who might prove be elite in the future. But only one guy has proven capable of going through the gauntlet and medaling, and that's JB.

 

Dake may be a world beater in waiting. But until he makes a world team and wins a world medal (or at least wins an international tournament with world medalists in it) we won't really know what he can do. As of now its possible for him to win a bunch of medals, but its also possible he ends up with none at all. Time will tell.

Edited by Katie

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How is Dake a notch above DT and Howe? What exactly has he accomplished in freestyle? Here's what I can recall off the top: 

 

1) 2013 WTTs. Runner up. He got by Howe in OT, and then loses to Burroughs in two straight matches. The first was a tech in under two minutes. In the second match Dake wrestled defensively and kept the score close, didn't score any points on his own offense. 

 

2) 2013 Golden Grand Prix. Fifth place. He beat Tsargush and lost to Aliyev and Gadzhiev and never faced the winner of the tournament, Kurbanov. Tsargush took Dake down pretty easily and then inexplicably gave up. I get that Dake's hand was hurt, so it's tough to tell where he was really at. But based on results this showing does not vault Dake into Burroughs's league. 

 

3) 2014 Cero Pellado. First place. None of the world's best were here. 

 

4) 2015 Northeast Regionals. First place. Beat high school junior Mason Manville. 

 

As far as I can tell, Dake was really even with Howe back in 2013, and then hasn't done much since. (Howe's 2015 Yarygin performance was more impressive than what Dake did at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix.) He also does not appear in the UWW freestyle rankings. To suspect Dake will do really well in the future is one thing. But to place him among the world's best at this point is premature. 

There are good points. I put Dake above DT because I think he's better and he beat him three times in two styles and it doesn't appear to me that DT has improved by leaps and bounds. The only wrinkle is Dake's time off.

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How is Dake a notch above DT and Howe? What exactly has he accomplished in freestyle? Here's what I can recall off the top: 

 

1) 2013 WTTs. Runner up. He got by Howe in OT, and then loses to Burroughs in two straight matches. The first was a tech in under two minutes. In the second match Dake wrestled defensively and kept the score close, didn't score any points on his own offense. 

 

2) 2013 Golden Grand Prix. Fifth place. He beat Tsargush and lost to Aliyev and Gadzhiev and never faced the winner of the tournament, Kurbanov. Tsargush took Dake down pretty easily and then inexplicably gave up. I get that Dake's hand was hurt, so it's tough to tell where he was really at. But based on results this showing does not vault Dake into Burroughs's league. 

 

3) 2014 Cero Pellado. First place. None of the world's best were here. 

 

4) 2015 Northeast Regionals. First place. Beat high school junior Mason Manville. 

 

As far as I can tell, Dake was really even with Howe back in 2013, and then hasn't done much since. (Howe's 2015 Yarygin performance was more impressive than what Dake did at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix.) He also does not appear in the UWW freestyle rankings. To suspect Dake will do really well in the future is one thing. But to place him among the world's best at this point is premature. 

At the 2013 event Dake also beat Taylor. Again.

 

And he beat Tsargush with a broken hand. The same Tsargush who destroyed Taylor.

 

Just not seeing this as advantage Taylor. The wildcard is how well Dake recovered from his injury.  

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At the 2013 event Dake also beat Taylor. Again.

 

And he beat Tsargush with a broken hand. The same Tsargush who destroyed Taylor.

 

Just not seeing this as advantage Taylor. The wildcard is how well Dake recovered from his injury.  

If we're talking seeds at the challenge tournament Taylor is guaranteed the one seed because he won the US Open. If we're talking about who's better, it gets a little more dicey. 

 

In 2013 Dake was certainly better than Taylor. But in 2015 it's less clear. After a few injuries, Dake seems to be avoiding Askren, big tournaments like Yarygin, and national events like the US Open, and opting instead to beat high school juniors in empty gymnasiums. It's a unique strategy he's taking, but we'll soon see if it pays off. 

 

As far as the WTTs go, Taylor is guaranteed the top spot in the challenge tournament because he won the US Open. Dake could very well win the challenge tournament anyway, but it's tough to say where he's at right now because he hasn't been very active. If in your heart you believe Taylor and Dake are at the same place they were two years ago, then I can understand why you think Dake would beat Taylor today. 

Edited by Katie

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I think the points many people are trying to make is not necessarily that Taylor is better, but that Taylor's resume for this cycle is superior to Dake's. Clearly recency matters in US seeding as evidenced by Herbert's seed at the Open. Of course USA wrestling was fully aware of Jake's accomplishments, but he has just gotten back into wrestling in the last few months. We all know Dake's record against Taylor, but Taylor has a better resume over the past year. No one will be surprised if Dake wins the challenge tourney, but that doesn't mean he should be the 1 seed. This gets back to a point that TR Foley made last year or two years ago. If Americans want to be ranked by UWW, they have to compete more often outside America. Seeds are based on resume, and Taylor's recent results outweigh Dake's.

 

I'm also surprised there's no mention of IMar this thread. I know we went 157 this year and got teched by Valencia last year, but that doesn't mean he can't improve and bulk up to 74kg. Not saying he wins anything beyond college right now, but I expect him to progress into a contender by 2020.

This is a great way of putting it. Taylor's resume is but I think Dake is just a better competitor. In college Taylor was so damn technically superior to everyone that he was like a chess grandmaster playing a master. Most of the time you don't need to be mentally tough. Dake was at Taylor's level and I think is simply a stronger competitor. Mentally tougher. 

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This is a great way of putting it. Taylor's resume is but I think Dake is just a better competitor. In college Taylor was so damn technically superior to everyone that he was like a chess grandmaster playing a master. Most of the time you don't need to be mentally tough. Dake was at Taylor's level and I think is simply a stronger competitor. Mentally tougher. 

Dake is also just a monster in the scrambles.  Taylor finishes moves so cleanly, I think it throws him off that he is generally unable to do finish clean against Dake.  I think that makes Dake more dangerous internationally as well (Tsargush match is a great example), but he'll need to both stay healthy and find a way to knock off JB, and stay ahead to DT, Howe, and the every growing group off college aged studs that are begining to really become a factor.

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Regardless of whether or not Taylor is "better" than Dake, or hypothetically could "do better internationally," Dake has in practical application beaten Taylor apparently 7 times in two styles of wrestling. IIRC, their 2013 freestyle matches weren't even close. 

 

Also, I think that it's really important to note that Dake beat two different 74kg gold medalists. He beat Tsargush in a fall "beer and pretzels" tournament, and he beat Burroughs by the FILA rules in 2013 at an event that Burroughs peaked for. 

 

Just because Dake "didn't score any of his own offense" against Burroughs means absolutely nothing. Does anyone internationally wrestle Burroughs offensively? Tsargush did once, when Burroughs was hurt. 

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